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Dizaster & Soul Kahn debated about refugees a few days ago


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Old 02-05-2017, 08:59 PM   #121
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You people have to stop invoking the name of Martin Luther King in order to perpetuate your thinly veiled SUPER non subtle pacifist logic.

Here's ANOTHER quote from MLK:

On urban riots:

On White delusion:

Like Randall said earlier. It's much easier to preach this kind of tolerance for spit in your face not only from the safety of your own home, but another country entirely. This is not to invalidate your stance, but to add much more context to it.

I am Black, Male, and identify with LGTBQ. As does my wife. We are quite literally being attacked from all sides. If your answer is to lay down and die? Good for you. I will fight until I die. Because that's what it's come to. No histrionics needed.
I'm pro-LGBT too

Why do you address me as "you people"? Why do you assume that I am your antagonist? I consider all humans to be brothers and sisters. Why does everyone seem to walk around these days assuming an adversarial relationship with their fellow man?

PriceisRight

he is saying that those conditions prompted the behavior, so he is against the conditions, sure. But he also condemns the response, even though he understands why they react that way.

He says that rioting is socially destructive and self-defeating. He couldn't have said it in plainer words. Why don't you understand that he is clearly against rioting?

Sure, rioting is the "language of the unheard" -- but that doesn't mean its productive or the right thing to do, MLK clearly states that it is self-destructive. The quotes you gave me merely show that he understands why riots happen. That doesn't mean they are the right response; he clearly says its not.

PriceIsRight, let me give you some advice. I'm not saying to lie down and die. Relax--your life is not in jeopardy. If it were, I would risk my life to fight by your side, if I could.. I give you my word.

Don't let negativity eat away at you. If you get angry, succumb to hatred or violence, that will do more harm to you than good. If hate causes you to feel violent and hateful, then you have let them win. That is how hate defeats you. Let me share another MLK quote for you: "I have decided to stick with love. Hate is too great a burden to bear."-MLK

I'm on your side, brother. I love all humanity and want every soul to find peace and love in this vale of tears.

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Old 02-05-2017, 09:54 PM   #122
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I'm pro-LGBT too

Why do you address me as "you people"? Why do you assume that I am your antagonist? I consider all humans to be brothers and sisters. Why does everyone seem to walk around these days assuming an adversarial relationship with their fellow man?

PriceisRight

he is saying that those conditions prompted the behavior, so he is against the conditions, sure. But he also condemns the response, even though he understands why they react that way.

He says that rioting is socially destructive and self-defeating. He couldn't have said it in plainer words. Why don't you understand that he is clearly against rioting?

Sure, rioting is the "language of the unheard" -- but that doesn't mean its productive or the right thing to do, MLK clearly states that it is self-destructive. The quotes you gave me merely show that he understands why riots happen. That doesn't mean they are the right response; he clearly says its not.

PriceIsRight, let me give you some advice. I'm not saying to lie down and die. Relax--your life is not in jeopardy. If it were, I would risk my life to fight by your side, if I could.. I give you my word.

Don't let negativity eat away at you. If you get angry, succumb to hatred or violence, that will do more harm to you than good. Let me share another MLK quote for you: "I have decided to stick with love. Hate is too great a burden to bear."-MLK

I'm on your side, brother. I love all humanity and want every soul to find peace and love amidst the storm.
In the context of his sentence "you people" was referring to those who have a pacifist ideology... Stop trying to seem like you're actually oppressed. You're truly the antagonist as you're trying to tell someone how they should feel and act over something you have no bearing on. Those MLK quotes are showing that he EMPATHIZES with people you have refereed to as animals, monkeys, apes and rats. You don't sound like you consider all humans your "brothers and sisters" if you can't even refrain from insulting people who are so desperate and down trodden they're resulting to violence. You sound like a pretentious holier than thou contrarian twit. As a white guy there is just no way you can quote MLK to a black dude without sounding like a pompous blow hard. You would never do that in real life because you know you would get your ass stomped or at the very least laughed at!

I'm a white dude but I grew up poor in the dirty south where I've seen people literally get beat brain dead for being gay. My friend got shot for being black at the wrong place at the wrong time. Don't tell people they're not in any real danger when you have no idea how rough it can be in the states. Try calling 911 in Detroit and getting put on hold for 2 hours. Furthermore this is far beyond a race issue. It's a class issue. The educated with money are always going to treat the lower classes like "apes" and "rats" regardless of how self righteous and enlightened they try to act.

Stop talking about shit you know nothing about. If the topic of dressing up like butters in his Professor Chaos costume and rapping battle verses to SketchMenance comes up and we need an expert we'll come for you. Until then stop acting like a pretentious twat and just drop it.

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I'm on your side, brother. I love all humanity and want every soul to find peace and love in this vale of tears.
Eat a dick.

Faggot

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Old 02-05-2017, 09:57 PM   #123
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In the context of his sentence "you people" was referring to those who have a pacifist ideology... Stop trying to seem like you're actually oppressed. You're truly the antagonist as you're trying to tell someone how they should feel and act over something you have no bearing on. Those MLK quotes are showing that he EMPATHIZES with people you have refereed to as animals, monkeys, apes and rats. You don't sound like you consider all humans your "brothers and sisters" if you can't even refrain from insulting people who are so desperate and down trodden they're resulting to violence. You sound like a pretentious holier than thou contrarian twit. As a white guy there is just no way you can quote MLK to a black dude without sounding like a pompous blow hard. You would never do that in real life because you know you would get your ass stomped or at the very least laughed at!

I'm a white dude but I grew up poor in the dirty south where I've seen people literally get beat brain dead for being gay. My friend got shot for being black at the wrong place at the wrong time. Don't tell people they're not in any real danger when you have no idea how rough it can be in the states. Try calling 911 in Detroit and getting put on hold for 2 hours. Furthermore this is far beyond a race issue. It's a class issue. The educated with money are always going to treat the lower classes like "apes" and "rats" regardless of how self righteous and enlightened they try to act.

Stop talking about shit you know nothing about. If the topic of dressing up like butters in his Professor Chaos costume and rapping battle verses to SketchMenance comes up and we need an expert we'll come for you. Until then stop acting like a pretentious twat and just drop it.
wow I'm not going to delve into this saltmine of a post lol. It's a sad sight to see people threatening harm to others because they dared to quote MLK!

never said I was oppressed I just wondered why he acted like I am an antagonist rival faction when he and I probably have more similarities or differences

Keep hating, you're only poisoning yourself

By all means; go out and be violent. And you will find that world hits back a lot harder.

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Old 02-05-2017, 10:01 PM   #124
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This went some places.

It's really, really nice to hear that people here are on hte up-and-up when it comes to social justice. Whether you're overzealous or not, to at least acknowledge that POC, women, LGBTQIC3P0 and in another sense, poor people ARE in fact getting a raw deal and there are swathes of people unable to engage with it correctly.
Awesome. Its upsetting to notice is majoritively poor people who want to hold on to racist and sexist ideologies though. For the rich and powerful they're just psychological tools. For the lower-classes they are weapons.

Mage, we've had a good chat. I don't directly disagree with you. I personally, would try to avoid violence at all costs. But if the alternative is to sit back and watch your world fall apart (or, at least transform in to something unpalatable) i do my best to maintain some empathy with those groups. I am white, but i have suffered violent social comeuppace due to some of my lifestyle choices and personally i never felt a lick of violence swell up in me. But thats me. Its not a philosophy, its who i am. A nerd.
But out in the real world where people are being beaten in to coma by their husbands, scorned lovers, racists, homophobes or political zealots there is absolutely a niche fitting to a violent response. It must'nt be impulsive or irrational imo. It has to have intent and some sort of plan behind it, but there is room.

As i said earlier, i wouldn't punch Milo out but i would do whatever i could to make him feel like he'd been punched out.

Back onto the thread topic though, neither of those guys should really be debating immigrants. Diz is self-loathing as fuck and for the purpose of this glib and humorus sentence, Soul Khan supports Palestinian genocide so...

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Old 02-05-2017, 10:15 PM   #125
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Much appreciated Randall. I'm a Jersey cat that moved to the deep south, and then to Texas..... it's been eye opening. I've had to fight people. Just glad to be understood.

Shit is scary outchea now.

On topic: Dizaster hurts my feelings, as a lot of my saudi folks/indian folks parents or they themselves were immigrants, just trying to better their lives, not hurt ours.
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Old 02-05-2017, 10:17 PM   #126
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This went some places.

It's really, really nice to hear that people here are on hte up-and-up when it comes to social justice. Whether you're overzealous or not, to at least acknowledge that POC, women, LGBTQIC3P0 and in another sense, poor people ARE in fact getting a raw deal and there are swathes of people unable to engage with it correctly.
Awesome. Its upsetting to notice is majoritively poor people who want to hold on to racist and sexist ideologies though. For the rich and powerful they're just psychological tools. For the lower-classes they are weapons.

Mage, we've had a good chat. I don't directly disagree with you. I personally, would try to avoid violence at all costs. But if the alternative is to sit back and watch your world fall apart (or, at least transform in to something unpalatable) i do my best to maintain some empathy with those groups. I am white, but i have suffered violent social comeuppace due to some of my lifestyle choices and personally i never felt a lick of violence swell up in me. But thats me. Its not a philosophy, its who i am. A nerd.
But out in the real world where people are being beaten in to coma by their husbands, scorned lovers, racists, homophobes or political zealots there is absolutely a niche fitting to a violent response. It must'nt be impulsive or irrational imo. It has to have intent and some sort of plan behind it, but there is room.

As i said earlier, i wouldn't punch Milo out but i would do whatever i could to make him feel like he'd been punched out.
Ya I hear ya..

Here's the thing. There are some seriously unhinged people out there acting violently. A lot of people have lost their minds over Trump being elected. My main point is this: If you lose yourself to emotion to the point where you recklessly act out, odds are you are harming yourself more than the object of your ire. If you become unhinged over Trump and lose your mind over it and act out foolishly, then you're letting Trump win.

If this becomes a battle of brute force, does that actually favor the left? IMO all that does is give the police state a pretext to bear down on you and further expand the police state.

Remember the Bush years? The anti-war left won that battle by being conscious and being more enlightened by the administration they loathed. The pen is mightier than the sword.

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Old 02-05-2017, 10:19 PM   #127
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Ya I hear ya..

Here's the thing. There are some seriously unhinged people out there acting violently. A lot of people have lost their minds over Trump being elected. My main point is this: If you lose yourself to emotion to the point where you recklessly act out, odds are you are harming yourself more than the object of your ire. If you become unhinged over Trump and lose your mind over it and act out foolishly, then you're letting Trump win.

Complete agree. It just doesn't rule out violence as a tool rather than weapon

If this becomes a battle of brute force, does that actually favor the left? IMO all that does is give the police state a pretext to bear down on you and further expand the police state. Not sure what exactly the solution is here, practically speaking... But I'll put it this way.. The footage of a man standing peacefully blocking a tank in Communist China is iconic and everlasting. That has way more power to induce change than setting fire to a limousine ever will.

I agree here. A battle of brute force means the most brutal win. And that's not the left. Or the intelligent right, tbh

Remember the Bush years? The anti-war left won that battle by being conscious and being more enlightened by the administration they loathed. The pen is mightier than the sword.
Ah. They didn't win. Obama continued the tirade in the middle east pretty aptly.
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Old 02-05-2017, 10:27 PM   #128
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Ah. They didn't win. Obama continued the tirade in the middle east pretty aptly.
I agree 100% with that. But I guess I meant it was "a win of sorts" for people who mobilized against Bush, they considered (and still insist) that Obama was a victory and a massive step forward. It was a win in the sense that many in the left were able to push back against Dubya in the way that they desired to.

But ya, I don't consider it a victory at all, but I dare not criticize Obama on this forum lol..
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Old 02-05-2017, 10:32 PM   #129
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I agree 100% with that. But I guess I meant it was "a win of sorts" for people who mobilized against Bush, they considered (and still insist) that Obama was a victory and a massive step forward. It was a win in the sense that many in the left were able to push back against Dubya in the way that they desired to.

But ya, I don't consider it a victory at all, but I dare not criticize Obama on this forum lol..
I see what you're getting at. Just seems a little flimsy inasmuch as what it looks like to me, is that they had their 'kindness' mistaken for weakness and were lied to. "Here, have a black president!" Everyone: YAY!!! "Ahem. He's actually a piece of shit with great TV manner"

"Oh. WELL TRUMP THEN!!"
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Old 02-05-2017, 10:47 PM   #130
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I see what you're getting at. Just seems a little flimsy inasmuch as what it looks like to me, is that they had their 'kindness' mistaken for weakness and were lied to. "Here, have a black president!" Everyone: YAY!!! "Ahem. He's actually a piece of shit with great TV manner"

"Oh. WELL TRUMP THEN!!"
Ya, I couldn't agree more. Well, goes to show you what angry mob psychology gets you.

The worst part is that the anti-war left went into hibernation as soon Obama became President.

We don't have a real democracy -- in USA or in Canada. I'm not sure if there is any country that is truly democratic, in the ideal sense of the term. I feel like people who are raging right now are like bulls charging at the matador's cape.... But never actually get to gore the matador, oblivious to the fact that their charge is playing into the Matador's game.

The sad irony of so-called democracy is that it actually incentivizes deception and deft manipulation of mob mentality.

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Old 02-05-2017, 10:52 PM   #131
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Wow, lots of typing going on here.

Diz is still a fucking idiot.
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Old 02-05-2017, 11:00 PM   #132
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Ya, I couldn't agree more. Well, goes to show you what angry mob psychology gets you.

The worst part is that the anti-war left went into hibernation as soon Obama became President.

We don't have a real democracy -- in USA or in Canada. I'm not sure if there is any country that is truly democratic. I feel like people who are raging right now are like bulls charging at the matador's cape.... But never actually get to gore the matador.
Iceland *thumbs up*
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Old 02-05-2017, 11:06 PM   #133
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Iceland *thumbs up*
Right. Forgot about Iceland
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Old 02-06-2017, 01:38 AM   #134
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The small segment of the Alt-Right in battle rap is super weird. And Diz isn't even close to making sense in any of his tweets. It's a good sign that most people in this thread are normal bc I feel like the battle rap community is a breeding ground for this conspiracy theory hateful rhetoric. Also there's a certain creator of this website who probably agrees with most of what Dizaster says.
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Old 02-06-2017, 04:54 AM   #135
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Soul Khan supports Palestinian genocide so...
Proof? Or are you assuming because he's Jewish?
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Old 02-06-2017, 06:57 AM   #136
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Proof? Or are you assuming because he's Jewish?
did you read the whole post, or just that? Read the entire sentence. It'll answer your Q.
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Old 02-06-2017, 03:27 PM   #137
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The small segment of the Alt-Right in battle rap is super weird. And Diz isn't even close to making sense in any of his tweets. It's a good sign that most people in this thread are normal bc I feel like the battle rap community is a breeding ground for this conspiracy theory hateful rhetoric. Also there's a certain creator of this website who probably agrees with most of what Dizaster says.
There's nothing wrong with searching for deep-state conspiracies per se. You'd have to be an idiot to assume that the official narratives are always factual, or that there are no false-flags, psych-ops or inside-jobs. But you'd also have to be an idiot, i.e. Dizaster, to think every development or event is a deep-state machination, or anyone who's progressive is an agent operating on behalf of George Soros. The problem is that you now have a lot of professional fraudsters and snakeoil salesmen who are exploiting the "Truther Movement" to sustain a racket. Most of these conspiracy theorists appear crooked and shady as hell don't they? And yes a bunch of other, more old-fashioned conspiracy theorists, simply scapegoat and implicate any and every creed or community they oppose as the conspirators, to alleviate their own interest group's responsibility for any offense. They also profit from delivering to a prejudice audience, who avoid information that might counter-argue their biases, propaganda they want to hear that will bolster their biases, hence the infamous Zionist conspiracy theory, which I don't believe in for the record.

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Old 02-06-2017, 04:37 PM   #138
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Right. I agree w this. Uncovering truth is important, but the hateful rhetoric is referring to all the Soros stuff and things like Pizzagate. But like the popularity of Alex Jones and Mike Cernovich go to your point regarding a lot of snake-oil salesman are profiting off of this shit and it's legitimately scary b/c people are falling for it.

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There's nothing wrong with searching for deep-state conspiracies per se. You'd have to be an idiot to assume that the official narratives are always factual, or that there are no false-flags, psych-ops or inside-jobs. But you'd also have to be an idiot, i.e. Dizaster, to think every development or event is a deep-state machination, or anyone who's progressive is an agent operating on behalf of George Soros. The problem is that you now have a lot of professional fraudsters and snakeoil salesmen who are exploiting the "Truther Movement" to sustain a racket. Most of these conspiracy theorists appear crooked and shady as hell don't they? And yes a bunch of other, more old-fashioned conspiracy theorists, simply scapegoat and implicate any and every creed or community they oppose as the conspirators, to alleviate their own interest group's responsibility for any offense, and they profit from delivering to a prejudice audience, who avoid information that might counter-argue their biases, propaganda they want to hear that will bolster their biases, hence the infamous Zionist conspiracy theory, which I don't believe in for the record.
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Old 02-06-2017, 05:46 PM   #139
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Right. I agree w this. Uncovering truth is important, but the hateful rhetoric is referring to all the Soros stuff and things like Pizzagate. But like the popularity of Alex Jones and Mike Cernovich go to your point regarding a lot of snake-oil salesman are profiting off of this shit and it's legitimately scary b/c people are falling for it.
You'll have noticed a regular tactic of right-wing conspiracy theorists is to denounce any acts of altruism or any progressive gestures, i.e. rainbow flags, as organized and inorganic, which they sometimes display evidence of, and therefore they conclude it's satanic. By doing this their audiences are getting subconsciously programmed to just never support the concept of charity or even generosity of any kind, which is what factions of the elite echelons desire, as they wanna keep getting richer, while everyone gets poorer, more anxious, more depressed, which makes the victimized masses more dependent on the elites. I suspect this is one of the reasons behind this resurgence of nastiness and bullying.
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Old 02-06-2017, 06:46 PM   #140
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Did you see what happened at Berkely? Do you see Trump supporters shutting down leftist speaking engagements at Universities with violence?

There are serious problems with the alt-right. But the real problem is that the right and the left are both in their own echo chambers, and when they do interact with eachother, it tends to be a violent and hostile affair.

The alt-right tends to be a bit too paranoid and emotional, pig-headed

The left tends to be too aggressive and insulting of the alt-right

I mean, there needs to be a higher level of discourse in society than the one we have been having.

For those leftists who make sport of bashing Trump all day, calling him Hitler, sorry that actually discredits you, and you won't reform anyone on the right saying stuff like that. You should focus on educating people, not saying that everyone who disagrees with you is a nazi. You can't appeal to a person's rationality by wailing "nazi" or any other demonizing epithet.

And the right isn't going to convince anyone on the left by their paranoia and exaggerations, because they are guilty of that as well.

And those leftists who use violence against the Trump supporters, that is not "liberal" We have to tolerate free speech of all people and discourse peacefully, regardless of how abhorrent that person's speech may be.

Also, when you are preaching love and tolerance, and you don't extend that love and tolerance to the right, the right will further bristle and dismiss what the left has to say-- (But the right is already pig-headed, so I'm not blaming the left entirely)

To you leftists who preach about love conquering hate.. Well if you truly believed in the power of love, you wouldn't hate your enemies, you would show them love. What I see with leftists today is an ethos of: "Love what I love, hate what I hate, and if you don't hate and love what I hate and love, I will hate you"
But what if you see Trump doing some Hitler like moves. Not every Trump supporter is a Nazi But I feel that what Trump is doing is very similar to what Hitler did do in the beginning.

Him pushing for Muslims in internment camps I could see happen in a few years
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Old 02-06-2017, 07:18 PM   #141
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I, however, do think there's a Zionist 'conspiracy'. Its not a conspiracy though, its facts. HOw much money Israel gets, what they're actually doing, and how they respond to criticism shows that its just happening. Its not a theory or whatever, it just IS happening. That IS what Israel believes. And the world is helping htem for some reason.
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Old 02-06-2017, 07:22 PM   #142
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Dizaster is right.
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Old 02-06-2017, 07:47 PM   #143
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But what if you see Trump doing some Hitler like moves. Not every Trump supporter is a Nazi But I feel that what Trump is doing is very similar to what Hitler did do in the beginning.

Him pushing for Muslims in internment camps I could see happen in a few years
You realise that was 80 years ago? I'm never gonna get complacent, and I'm not a Trump supporter, and I'm very anxious about the future, but I think talk of the Nazis is just Hollywood industry hysteria. I'll try and sedate peoples trepidation.

8 Reasons why the Trump Administration won't replicate the Nazis

1) Barbarism on a mass scale was commonplace in Europe. WW1 was only 20 years earlier. Stalin was executing opponents all over the place, literally starving his population to death. People didn't value human life to such a high extent.
2) There were no international human rights conventions, or humanitarian NGOs.
3) From the get-go Hitler rejected parliamentary democracy, he promised to dispense with it, and to be a tyrant, and then he got elected.
4) People only resorted to National Socialism because the economy was so dire in Germany. We aren't in a Great Depression in 2017. And Hitler and Mussolini were so tremendously effective at repairing their economies that their citizens lauded them as saviours, and as a result allowed Hitler to ethnically cleanse the Jews. I don't think Trump will be economically rewarding.
5) The only reason anti Semitism was palatable was because the Jewish population in Germany was miniscule, there were only 500,000 of them, so they were an easy target. There are far too many Muslims in USA, UK, France, Canada etc for any politician to violently persecute on a macro level.
6) Hitler was a visionary, he wrote Mein Kampf in the 20s. Trump has never written a Thesis.
7) Fascism and eugenics was already in vogue a decade before the Third Reich. Mussolini rose to power in 1922. Hell even in the deep south black men were getting lynched.
8) Maybe most importantly you didn't have social media, 24/7 news updates, viral videos, to actually expose atrocities, so there was a culture of impunity, governments and armies were untouchable, now they're held accountable to an extent.
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Old 02-06-2017, 08:01 PM   #144
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RMBVA is a great place to discuss politics, also battle rappers are great political pundits. On account of all the CNN they watch all day and graphs they read
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Old 02-06-2017, 08:07 PM   #145
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I, however, do think there's a Zionist 'conspiracy'. Its not a conspiracy though, its facts. HOw much money Israel gets, what they're actually doing, and how they respond to criticism shows that its just happening. Its not a theory or whatever, it just IS happening. That IS what Israel believes. And the world is helping htem for some reason.
Nah the Israel/Palestine issue is actually pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things. A professor when I was at University back in 2010 told us that it's been portrayed as this mega crucial issue, a key to regional peace, when in reality it doesn't really mean anything, and no country cares about the Palestinian cause, or even about Jewish nationalism, because it's such a minute patch of land and involves so few people.

And I would say probably most of the globe holders, plutocrats, i.e. the Rockefellers, Murdoch, aren't even Jewish, and whilst there are a disproportionate number of Jewish elites relative to their world population, a lot of them, like Soros, are accused of financing pro Islam, white supremacist, or even Anti-Semitic militant factions, they aren't Zionists.
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Old 02-06-2017, 08:07 PM   #146
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But what if you see Trump doing some Hitler like moves. Not every Trump supporter is a Nazi But I feel that what Trump is doing is very similar to what Hitler did do in the beginning.

Him pushing for Muslims in internment camps I could see happen in a few years
Aren't the majority of victims of terrorism muslim? i.e. Islam seems to oppress itself (in the form of conflict and oppression between the various factions) than any outside force does?

Therefore, if you really care about Muslims, why aren't you railing against ISIL? Aren't they also analogous to "Nazis"?

Just some History of anti-semitism I found on some Jewish Library:

When Jews were perceived as having achieved too comfortable a position in Islamic society, anti-Semitism would surface, often with devastating results: On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power....

More than a thousand Jews were killed in anti-Jewish rioting during the 1940's in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria and Yemen.(13) This helped trigger the mass exodus of Jews from Arab countries.


You know who admires Hitler as much as Neo-Nazis do? Radical Muslims.

Hitler had a lot of praise for Islam, he even lamented the fact that Germany was Christian and not Islamic. And it's not hard to see why --Anti-homosexual, anti -semitic, Mohammed being a warlord and all... Both ideologies aspire for global domination and extermination of outsiders..

Of course, racially, most Muslims did not fit into Hitler's scheme, but in practically every other way the ideology of Islam was and is compatible to that of the nazis.

Jews are banned from travelling to many (if not all?) of the same Muslim countries that Trump is ordering a temporary travel ban on.

Look, I really don't want to get embroiled in another debate. But I don't think it's as simple as Trump = Hitler

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Old 02-06-2017, 08:45 PM   #147
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Nah the Israel/Palestine issue is actually pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things. A professor when I was at University back in 2010 told us that it's been portrayed as this mega crucial issue, a key to regional peace, when in reality it doesn't really mean anything, and no country cares about the Palestinian cause, or even about Jewish nationalism, because it's such a minute patch of land and involves so few people.

And I would say probably most of the globe holders, plutocrats, i.e. the Rockefellers, Murdoch, aren't even Jewish, and whilst there are a disproportionate number of Jewish elites relative to their world population, a lot of them, like Soros, are accused of financing pro Islam, white supremacist, or even Anti-Semitic militant factions, they aren't Zionists.
I'm sorry but that just sounds incredibly, inCREDIBLY ignorant to me. It is THE issue in the region. I'm going by ears on the ground here. While i was in NYC i was staying with a friend of mine i met in Egypt who has spent multiple months, multiple times in Palestine over the last five years .... It is incredibly important.
When you have the Israeli justice minister calling for the death of Palestinian children - I think its tantamount to intellectual dishonesty to ignore it. Now Syria - that's a fucking non-issue that they're trying to make into something. You can usually tell - if something is being kept away from the media, then its probably true. If its being blasted (on either side of hte aisle) its probably bollocks

As i said, its facts, not an opinion. That IS the biggest issue in the region. To some degree, the globe. If Israel were to step back from its ridiculous, illegal genocidal treatment of the legal owners of the land - Palestinians - the entire region would begin to stabalize due to the largest, most well-connected (above surface, i mean) country actually behaving itself for once.

Shout out for not equating anti-Zionism with ante-Semitism though man
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Old 02-06-2017, 08:51 PM   #148
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Aren't the majority of victims of terrorism muslim? i.e. Islam seems to oppress itself (in the form of conflict and oppression between the various factions) than any outside force does?

Therefore, if you really care about Muslims, why aren't you railing against ISIL? Aren't they also analogous to "Nazis"?

Just some History of anti-semitism I found on some Jewish Library:

When Jews were perceived as having achieved too comfortable a position in Islamic society, anti-Semitism would surface, often with devastating results: On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power....

More than a thousand Jews were killed in anti-Jewish rioting during the 1940's in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria and Yemen.(13) This helped trigger the mass exodus of Jews from Arab countries.


You know who admires Hitler as much as Neo-Nazis do? Radical Muslims.

Hitler had a lot of praise for Islam, he even lamented the fact that Germany was Christian and not Islamic. And it's not hard to see why --Anti-homosexual, anti -semitic, Mohammed being a warlord and all... Both ideologies aspire for global domination and extermination of outsiders..

Of course, racially, most Muslims did not fit into Hitler's scheme, but in practically every other way the ideology of Islam was and is compatible to that of the nazis.

Jews are banned from travelling to many (if not all?) of the same Muslim countries that Trump is ordering a temporary travel ban on.

Look, I really don't want to get embroiled in another debate. But I don't think it's as simple as Trump = Hitler
I dont think he equals hitler. I just think if we turn a blind eye to all he's doing by the time he becomes hitler it will be to late. Hitler didn't come out saying kill jews. He started with words speaking against jews making them seem criminal.

I will be honest I don't know enough about Isil to speak on them. I am very weary in speaking against who the US calls terrorist. The difference between a terrorists and a freedom fighter is what?

I also use these analogies

Luke Skywalker and the rebel alliance would be viewed as violent terrorists, however they are the heroes and the good guys of the story
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Old 02-06-2017, 08:55 PM   #149
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You realise that was 80 years ago? I'm never gonna get complacent, and I'm not a Trump supporter, and I'm very anxious about the future, but I think talk of the Nazis is just Hollywood industry hysteria. I'll try and sedate peoples trepidation.

8 Reasons why the Trump Administration won't replicate the Nazis

1) Barbarism on a mass scale was commonplace in Europe. WW1 was only 20 years earlier. Stalin was executing opponents all over the place, literally starving his population to death. People didn't value human life to such a high extent.
2) There were no international human rights conventions, or humanitarian NGOs.
3) From the get-go Hitler rejected parliamentary democracy, he promised to dispense with it, and to be a tyrant, and then he got elected.
4) People only resorted to National Socialism because the economy was so dire in Germany. We aren't in a Great Depression in 2017. And Hitler and Mussolini were so tremendously effective at repairing their economies that their citizens lauded them as saviours, and as a result allowed Hitler to ethnically cleanse the Jews. I don't think Trump will be economically rewarding.
5) The only reason anti Semitism was palatable was because the Jewish population in Germany was miniscule, there were only 500,000 of them, so they were an easy target. There are far too many Muslims in USA, UK, France, Canada etc for any politician to violently persecute on a macro level.
6) Hitler was a visionary, he wrote Mein Kampf in the 20s. Trump has never written a Thesis.
7) Fascism and eugenics was already in vogue a decade before the Third Reich. Mussolini rose to power in 1922. Hell even in the deep south black men were getting lynched.
8) Maybe most importantly you didn't have social media, 24/7 news updates, viral videos, to actually expose atrocities, so there was a culture of impunity, governments and armies were untouchable, now they're held accountable to an extent.
True so he might not be able to copy exactly what Hitler did. But I just don't really like the direction he is going and it seems that if he could he would copy hitler but Muslims instead of Jews.

And maybe not killing them but mass discrimination is already becoming an issue and don't think it will get better under Trump
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Old 02-06-2017, 09:10 PM   #150
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I dont think he equals hitler. I just think if we turn a blind eye to all he's doing by the time he becomes hitler it will be to late. Hitler didn't come out saying kill jews. He started with words speaking against jews making them seem criminal.

I will be honest I don't know enough about Isil to speak on them. I am very weary in speaking against who the US calls terrorist. The difference between a terrorists and a freedom fighter is what?

I also use these analogies

Luke Skywalker and the rebel alliance would be viewed as violent terrorists, however they are the heroes and the good guys of the story
Well, I guess a freedom fighter is fighting for freedom. That's the difference.
Are ISIL fighting for freedom? Or are they fighting for global conquest?

The rebels were destroying a deathstar, a menacing battle station and weapon destroying entire planets.

Muslims kill those who violate Sharia law, they kill homosexuals, they treat women like cattle and kill those who resist that treatment. They kill Muslims who want to renounce Islam. They kill Muslims who have different beliefs than they do. They kill Christians, Jews, Buddhist, etc.

Why has there not been a reformation in islam? Well, they'd be killed in short order if anyone attempted it.

It's called terrorism because they harm innocent civilians in society in the name of Islam; because the Koran says "death to non-believers" The infidel is by defnition not innocent, and considered fair game.

When a muslim shoots up a gay night club, that's not freedom fighting. The gay nightclub is not a death star.

The people who died on the death star were not innocent civilians. They were knowingly complicit in a plot to oppress and destroy innocent people. That's why it's not terrorism, it's freedom fighting.

Even the engineers who worked on the deathstar were not innocent, they knew what kind of evil shit they were participating in. Even the janitors of the deathstar can't be called innocent civilians

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Old 02-06-2017, 09:13 PM   #151
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^^^ Muslims do that or Islamic extremists do? Cause if we're judging all religions by one portion of extremist The KKK has been one of the biggest Christian Organizations in American history @Water Mage
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Old 02-06-2017, 09:19 PM   #152
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^^^ Muslims do that or Islamic extremists do? Cause if we're judging all religions by one portion of extremist The KKK has been one of the biggest Christian Organizations in American history @Water Mage
the topic is radical Muslims, I typed that out too fast forgot to add the "radical" part
@LukeWaltonisGoat

Of course an entire religion should not be judged based on its most insane devotees

There are really bad groups and really bad people amongst all religions.

The unique problem with radical islam is that it oppresses other Muslims. Many peaceful Muslims would like to see a popular peace movement within Islam -- A reformation, but they'd be killed for doing so.

Thus the biggest threat and oppressor to non-radical Muslims is radical muslims.

radical Muslims bomb the mosques of opposing Muslim sects ffs

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Old 02-06-2017, 09:24 PM   #153
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Well, I guess a freedom fighter is fighting for freedom. That's the difference.
Are ISIL fighting for freedom? Or are they fighting for global conquest?

The rebels were destroying a deathstar, a menacing battle station and weapon destroying entire planets.

Muslims kill those who violate Sharia law, they kill homosexuals, they treat women like cattle and kill those who resist that treatment. They kill Muslims who want to renounce Islam. They kill Muslims who have different beliefs than they do. They kill Christians, Jews, Buddhist, etc.

Why has there not been a reformation in islam? Well, they'd be killed in short order if anyone attempted it.

It's called terrorism because they harm innocent civilians in society in the name of Islam; because the Koran says "death to non-believers" The infidel is by defnition not innocent, and considered fair game.

When a muslim shoots up a gay night club, that's not freedom fighting. The gay nightclub is not a death star.

The people who died on the death star were not innocent civilians. They were knowingly complicit in a plot to oppress and destroy innocent people. That's why it's not terrorism, it's freedom fighting.

Even the engineers who worked on the deathstar were not innocent, they knew what kind of evil shit they were participating in. Even the janitors of the deathstar can't be called innocent civilians
How many innocent people do you think died on the death star.

If you talk to a radical islamist they can break down why what they are doing is right and how US is evil
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Old 02-06-2017, 09:33 PM   #154
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How many innocent people do you think died on the death star.

If you talk to a radical islamist they can break down why what they are doing is right and how US is evil

My knowledge of Star Wars lore is pretty bad but...

I suppose the only people on the deathstar who were innocent were prisoners. But if the deathstar wasn't destroyed, they would probably be put to death or worse anyway.

Even if I were forced to be on the deathstar against my will, as an engineer or a stormtrooper, I'd welcome being blown up along with it.

And by destroying the deathstar they saved too many lives and planets to imagine. They were destroying a weapon that was capable of destroying hundreds of billions of more lives than it had on it.

I wouldn't say that is analogous to shooting a bunch of gay people in a night club in the name of Islam, nor is it analogous to radical Muslims bombing a mosque of a rival sect of Islam

I don't doubt that radical Muslims can justify killing innocent people; Evil people usually do find a way to rationalize immoral acts.

Killing innocent people is not freedom fighting. Killing innocent people is murder.

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Old 02-06-2017, 09:46 PM   #155
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I don't doubt that radical Muslims can justify killing innocent people; Evil people usually do find a way to rationalize immoral acts.

Killing innocent people is not freedom fighting. Killing innocent people is murder.
This being the case, the U.S and previously Great Britain are much, much more violent, radical institutions than Islam.
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Old 02-06-2017, 10:05 PM   #156
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This being the case, the U.S and previously Great Britain are much, much more violent, radical institutions than Islam.
I agree. But one evil does not diminish the other.

I'm assuming ISIL would and will do as much damage as it's resources allow. I'm assuming the British Empire and USA surpassed radical islam in destruction because of greater resources and reach. These are Hegemonies and Empires. Radical islam would do the same if they established an empire. And according to them and their holy books, that is exactly what they aspire to achieve.

Differences in capacity to do harm aside, they are both guilty of the same immorality.

The USA needs to stop setting other countries on fire, period.

And, setting other countries on fire and open boarders.. well, that's asking for trouble IMO.

There's no question that abominable US intervention (atrocities) is fanning the flames of radical Islam. But radical islam existed before American Hegemony and will outlast it.

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Old 02-06-2017, 10:37 PM   #157
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This being the case, the U.S and previously Great Britain are much, much more violent, radical institutions than Islam.
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Old 02-06-2017, 10:42 PM   #158
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I agree. But one evil does not diminish the other.

I'm assuming ISIL would and will do as much damage as it's resources allow. I'm assuming the British Empire and USA surpassed radical islam in destruction because of greater resources and reach. These are Hegemonies and Empires. Radical islam would do the same if they established an empire. And according to them and their holy books, that is exactly what they aspire to achieve.

Differences in capacity to do harm aside, they are both guilty of the same immorality.

The USA needs to stop setting other countries on fire, period.

And, setting other countries on fire and open boarders.. well, that's asking for trouble IMO.

There's no question that abominable US intervention (atrocities) is fanning the flames of radical Islam. But radical islam existed before American Hegemony and will outlast it.
Agreed, i wasn't exactly trying to take-down the idea that at the least ISIL (no, not all of Islam.. ISIL) are horrible. But to think you're focussing on an incredibly minority when the U.S is STILL bombing innocent people in places they have nothing to do with seems a bit weird to me, so i figured to mention.

Also, Islam has a very long history of NOT committing genocide. They were subject to many and obviously aren't innocent but majoritively violent islam is a more recent thing to the best of my knowledge
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Old 02-06-2017, 10:48 PM   #159
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I unfollowed Soul Khan from Facebook because of how he presented his views.

He basically said it's impossible for anyone to support Donald Trump. Someone would disagree with him and he could not fathom that someone could have a different political view from him.
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Old 02-06-2017, 11:04 PM   #160
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Agreed, i wasn't exactly trying to take-down the idea that at the least ISIL (no, not all of Islam.. ISIL) are horrible. But to think you're focussing on an incredibly minority when the U.S is STILL bombing innocent people in places they have nothing to do with seems a bit weird to me, so i figured to mention.

Also, Islam has a very long history of NOT committing genocide. They were subject to many and obviously aren't innocent but majoritively violent islam is a more recent thing to the best of my knowledge
The only reason I'm focusing on ISIL is because that is the topic...

If we want to talk about what the US is doing wrong, I will focus on that and I wouldn't even mention problems with radical islam.

And to be honest, I still wouldn't have much to say about the USA's wrongdoings, simply because I don't have many original thoughts to contribute to the conversation. I'd rather people just go to Noam Chomsky for that.

I think other people have already said it better than I ever could. I've been against American imperialism since the (W) Bush era, and I was vocal about the atrocities committed by the Obama administration while *from my social media perspective* the left was silent.

Speaking of Chomsky, he's the only public figure on the left that I have seen who is able to critique Trump in a rational and sane manner. I'm tossing this link in, not to make a statement but just for tha culcha


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