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Old 03-15-2016, 07:14 PM   #1
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Couldn't think of a fucking subject title

It seems like there is a thin line between making money and preserving the art form when it comes to battle rap. It seems like battle rappers and battle fans have a love/hate relationship. Personally I love the support, the criticism and even the trolling involved with this art form. The trouble I have is when people vilify those that have some sense of business acumen and label them as greedy individuals.

Are fans just as greedy as the battlers?

To my knowledge the average battlers performing on one of the "Big 3" battle leagues are pulling in approximately $1,500-5,000 per battle. At 5 battles a year, that puts them at $25k MAX from the leagues, that are also often vilified because of their business dealing. $25,000.....That's below the poverty level if that's your only source of income. Now, most battlers, regardless to what you believe have a hustle. Some work a regular job while others have legal and/or illegal outlets to make money. How much do we as fans support the actual battler? Don't get me wrong, a lot of this falls on the battler. A battler has to come up with worthwhile ways for his or her fans to support them as well, but are fans even looking to support a battler in a tangible way?

Are battle rap fans so used to getting free art, packaged as "entertainment" that they scoff at the idea of having to spend money?

Are leagues easier to be loyal to than battlers are?


What kind of fan are you?

Do fans support battlers as individuals?

What are some of the ways a battler can gain your support outside of the ring?

Keep it fun guys

Last edited by questmcody; 03-15-2016 at 07:16 PM.
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Old 03-15-2016, 07:27 PM   #2
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Are fans just as greedy as the battlers?


IMO the short answer to your question: Yes, probably more greedy tbh.

IMO the long answer to your question: Battle rap fans are some of the most stupid fans in all of entertainment that I actually keep track of (sports, video games, TV, Film). They have no idea what they want collectively. Are pretty unfair to the artists and leagues and don't know what it takes to takes as fans to take the platform to the next level. I put most of the blame on the fans for battle rap stalling as much as it does.

With all that said I also put some of the blame on the battlers & league owners for not being creative in coming up with ways to generate more revenue. I think battle rap is around 50-65% of it's financial potential for league owners and the battlers. I've personally thought of different ways leagues or battlers could generate different revenue streams to make more meaningful battles happen and make more meaningful battles happen frequently. Ultimately I don't think any of the league owners or their staff are educated enough to come up with these alternative approaches. Ultimately though I agree with you. Battle rap has some foolish ass fans that ruin the "culture" for everyone involved.
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Old 03-15-2016, 07:39 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by questmcody View Post

Are fans just as greedy as the battlers?
Definitely. Probably moreso.

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Originally Posted by questmcody View Post
Don't get me wrong, a lot of this falls on the battler. A battler has to come up with worthwhile ways for his or her fans to support them as well, but are fans even looking to support a battler in a tangible way?
Nope. We might support you if you battle on something with a PPV then MAYBE. .. and even that's a big maybe.
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Are battle rap fans so used to getting free art, packaged as "entertainment" that they scoff at the idea of having to spend money?
Damn right.




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What kind of fan are you?
The kind who fucks with the top tier and thinks everyone else is kinda wack with some exceptions.
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Old 03-15-2016, 07:45 PM   #4
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i feel like i can't add much to this discussion except to say that PPV apparently has become a pretty good source of income for the leagues (i personally don't understand why, i have never bought one and never will), and that for me personally, the only way a battler can hope to get money from me is if i like their music. when i like music, i almost always actually buy it, especially if it's a smaller artist (i.e. not someone like Jay, Em, Drake, etc.). there are some battlers where i'll buy pretty much everything they release (Illmac, Locksmith [if he still counts as a battler], couple others) and loads of whom i've bought at least one project (DBD, DFD, Lux, Saurus, Marv, Quest, Ness Lee,...). but for battles themselves, i don't see why i would pay for something they already got paid for tbh. even less so since i don't need to and can just watch them on youtube for free. this is a problem that the leagues would have to address together, which seems unlikely to happen.
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Old 03-15-2016, 07:47 PM   #5
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I got no problems supporting battles with money.

I've bought damn near every ppv that has a name im interested in over the past 5 years, been to pretty much every Toronto event + one NY event.

What I will say is that I wish there was a mechanism to support specific battlers that I enjoy. Oftentimes the card will be full of dudes that I don't have any interest in supporting and it kinda sucks knowing that a chunk of my however many dollars are going towards dudes that don't deserve it.

I'll buy music of battlers that I like to support, regardless of if it's music I actually enjoy (Illmac, Ness Lee, Shotty, Flight Distance, Pesci) or music I probably will never listen to but see as a way to support the battler directly (Rone, Saurus...no offense to either of you). Occasionally I'll cop a shirt or two at the venue, but they usually get used as a beater shirt cause I'm not really interested in wearing a SUCKA FREE BOSSSSS shirt in public. I never really feel ripped off either way cause even if the product I'm paying for isn't that good I see it as a way of compensating them for hours of entertainment I've received.

Leagues are, in a way, easier to be loyal to than battlers. With KOTD I know I'm getting a consistent product, whereas if a battler I like is taking a battle on a no name league and they're doing a PPV, I'm taking a bit of a risk trying to support them. Especially these sketchy ass pop up leagues that throw bullshit one rounders and never tell anyone about it. Also kinda shitty when you pay for a product only because you wanna support a couple dudes on the card and find out the league never paid them properly anyway.

Last edited by Casual; 03-15-2016 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 03-15-2016, 07:48 PM   #6
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The kind who fucks with the top tier and thinks everyone else is kinda wack with some exceptions.
lmao i'm like this too... i can't even front.


yo ultimately when we talking about spending my money on a battle rapper. I personally have to feel that I've seen that guy put in enough work OR his/her shit is so fire that I have to spend my money.... Like I would never pay for a danny myers battle (or anything danny myers) for example. He ain't put in no work and 80% of his battles are trash.

A different example is dizaster. I think 50% of his battles are bullshit but he been battling forever and put in real work so I'd consider spending some bread for dude, for a good match up atleast. Like diz vs hollow or some shit like that.

Lux on the other hand. I've bought every ppv he been apart of (shady, UW, URL) and I even copped some of his real music I think. I wish his clothing game was better cause I'd be happy copping even tho i'd prolly never wear. I think every battler gear is ass by the way (LOM, DOT, Lux, ETC)

now with that said.

someone REALLY NEW who battles I would support if I could some how....

Chess

this nigga spits 100% every single battle that I seen so far. I'd consider copping a chess PPV if there was such thing.



lots of factors go into this conversation

- Likability
- Actual Talent/Skill Level
- Earned Respect
- Likely hood of creating entertaining moments
- History (respectable moments vs clownish moments)
- Likely hood of let down
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Old 03-15-2016, 07:50 PM   #7
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hitman says he gets 20k for a battle and 5k for a one-rounder

but he doesnt battle too much

danny myers had to pay rex 12k to battle him

who knows what the leagues actually pay, but 1-5k is a good bet for most well-knows dudes i think
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Old 03-15-2016, 07:53 PM   #8
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1-5k is a lot and it's already unsustainable. Battle leagues barely scrape together cash to pay for these events.

Battlers should be using battling to promote themselves, whether it's music or merchandise, and not trying to use it as their primary source of income.
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Old 03-15-2016, 07:59 PM   #9
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1-5k is a lot and it's already unsustainable. Battle leagues barely scrape together cash to pay for these events.

Battlers should be using battling to promote themselves, whether it's music or merchandise, and not trying to use it as their primary source of income.
why shouldn't it be sustainable? Everyone needs to put their brain together to make it sustainable. If battles can average upwards of 500k per battle there's a serious market for it. There are TV shows on cable television that don't carry that type of viewership
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Old 03-15-2016, 08:05 PM   #10
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why shouldn't it be sustainable? Everyone needs to put their brain together to make it sustainable. If battles can average upwards of 500k per battle there's a serious market for it. There are TV shows on cable television that don't carry that type of viewership
do you think someone deserves to make their entire living for reciting manpoems for 20 minutes 5 times a year?
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Old 03-15-2016, 08:08 PM   #11
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do you think someone deserves to make their entire living for reciting manpoems for 20 minutes 5 times a year?
meh. there's people that make a living do far less tbh.

if there's a market to support it, sure.

you still can't make a living...at best you're looking at the very top tier dudes making like 60-70k a year. for someone who lives in NY that ain't all that much. also consider that you can only really battle for so long...it's not something you do from 20-70 then retire.

too bad that if battling ever reaches that point it will be far after any of the dudes who actually deserve to eat off this are relevant and instead it'll be a bunch of dizaster and b magic clones getting those checks.

Last edited by Casual; 03-15-2016 at 08:11 PM.
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Old 03-15-2016, 09:21 PM   #12
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Everyone in the world is trying to get something for a cheaper price if not for free this is applicable to battling naturally
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Old 03-15-2016, 09:49 PM   #13
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I'm all for battlers being able to live off battling, but it isn't there yet. At least not for some of the numbers thrown out.

These leagues also have a staff of people to pay ontop of the battlers. Granted its not like some company with 100+ employees, but I think people overlook that profits for leagues are still split up.

Battle rap was always something used to promote yourself. The potential for making money is there. People just don't use it to the fullest. Even Lux barely capatalized off his Cal battle but he tried with his Get this Work mixtape. Had he planned something like that ahead of time he def would have caked.

DBD said he made what? 100 grand or some shit after his Flip Top battle through self promotion, on the last episode of the DBDShow.

A lot of these fools def deserve more money, but until its there they have to make that money their own way. If they can't figure out how, its on them to either figure it out, or find another source of income until battle rap can pay them more. It sucks but thats how it is.

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why shouldn't it be sustainable? Everyone needs to put their brain together to make it sustainable. If battles can average upwards of 500k per battle there's a serious market for it. There are TV shows on cable television that don't carry that type of viewership
Most of those TV shows are still far more valuable though because of advertising potential.

A lot of companies don't want to associate themselves with something as negative as battle rap in its current form. The channels that would likely have better viewed programming already

and in the realm of the internet, 500K a battle isn't even a lot. Not even close. So they would look to far better sources of viewership online than battle rap.
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Old 03-16-2016, 12:26 AM   #14
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Definitely with JustJ123 here. I used to bboy and was always broke because events are expensive and we get nothing back. So I went to a theme park and got a show with them, started teaching, wrote articles, and had a Youtube channel. All of that together was actually plenty of money to live and have some spare. The only problem was that, of course, battling had to become a lower priority.

Generally the rappers who make the most are the ones who use battling as only one of multiple revenue streams. Where are the battle rap workshops? DVDs? Mix CDs? etc.
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Old 03-16-2016, 12:47 AM   #15
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Old 03-16-2016, 12:51 AM   #16
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Thumbs up

As fans it's easy to forget there's real people with bills and families behind the artists. We all live vicariously through entertainers as a form of escapism to forget for a short time about the obligations we have in real life.

With that being said, artists often forget that fans also have bills and families and we will always support them first over a stranger who rhythmically says clever things.

I used to just buy ppvs if they're were a couple battles on it that I wanted to see. Now I simply just buy the KOTD ppv every time because I know they're going to deliver quality as a brand. I like the setup they use, I like to see the interviews in between battles maybe with the battlers that I really like that didn't get to battle. It's worth it to me NOW whereas before It was about getting to see the people I like if they happened to be booked.

I think most people including the rappers have huge misconceptions about youtube motorization.

Quote:
The ad income will vary drastically based on who is viewing your content and if you can have your inventory direct sold or if you're using google to fill it and if you have an MCN taking a cut, etc. But let's break it down:

ADS
Let’s assume you're part of an MCN, and you're getting a $5 CPM (probably likely). YouTube takes 45% off the top, and then you have to give a percentage to your MCN (let's say 25%). Here's how that would break out:
$5.00 CPM
$5.00 CPM x 55% to channel (after 45% goes to YouTube) = $2.75
45% of views are monetized ~ $1.24 (odds are most of your views won't have ads)
25% goes to MCN ~ $1.15
Total to creator ~ $1.15 per thousand views

OTHER REVENUE OPPORTUNITIES
I literally just did a blog post about this, you can read that here (http://brendangahan.com/?p=343). But, long story short, YouTube can be a great platform to cultivate an audience, and from there you can channel the audience to any number of revenue opportunities (Merch, etc). Hope that helps
These promoters aren't making back what they put in from youtube views alone. That's why these one off leagues are just that, that expect to get rich off views alone whereas KOTD is making money at the door, with merch and with PPV views. They're providing more of a platform for their rappers to make more money than just their initial payment to battle. They offer more brand expansion and you're going to get better quality content from performers because their merch and promotion is dependent on their bars.

You're going to have the rappers who do shit battles for a check but initial payments aren't going to make you rich. You have to use the platform you're given to promote your brand and music.
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Old 03-16-2016, 12:58 AM   #17
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It seems like there is a thin line between making money and preserving the art form when it comes to battle rap. It seems like battle rappers and battle fans have a love/hate relationship. Personally I love the support, the criticism and even the trolling involved with this art form. The trouble I have is when people vilify those that have some sense of business acumen and label them as greedy individuals.

Are fans just as greedy as the battlers?

To my knowledge the average battlers performing on one of the "Big 3" battle leagues are pulling in approximately $1,500-5,000 per battle. At 5 battles a year, that puts them at $25k MAX from the leagues, that are also often vilified because of their business dealing. $25,000.....That's below the poverty level if that's your only source of income. Now, most battlers, regardless to what you believe have a hustle. Some work a regular job while others have legal and/or illegal outlets to make money. How much do we as fans support the actual battler? Don't get me wrong, a lot of this falls on the battler. A battler has to come up with worthwhile ways for his or her fans to support them as well, but are fans even looking to support a battler in a tangible way?

Are battle rap fans so used to getting free art, packaged as "entertainment" that they scoff at the idea of having to spend money?

Are leagues easier to be loyal to than battlers are?


What kind of fan are you?

Do fans support battlers as individuals?

What are some of the ways a battler can gain your support outside of the ring?

Keep it fun guys
Some really good points here and frankly this is why battling will always just be a hobby for me

There are ways to make some -okay- money from it but they require a lot of work to get these fans to pay for something. It's hard because in battle rap you're just one out of hundreds of characters that the fans choose to watch. They don't want to spend money in the first place and then when there are so many options it makes it even more difficult. If I really wanted to make money from rapping I would be throwing my own events and creating lowest common denominator content for my own youtube channel. I think that's lame so I won't.
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Old 03-16-2016, 12:59 AM   #18
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1-5k is a lot and it's already unsustainable. Battle leagues barely scrape together cash to pay for these events.

Battlers should be using battling to promote themselves, whether it's music or merchandise, and not trying to use it as their primary source of income.
this...when niggas started trying to cake off rap battles, thats
when the quality & authenticity took a nose dive...too many leagues
poppin up ruining potenital classics that could have been
better orchestrated on already established leagues...

then shit fucks like Murda Mook trying to cash in-with $50,000
appearance fee's...

we need less leagues, and more quality battlers w/ ambitions/aspirations
well beyond battle rap...

*lets not forget that the average battle rapper is not that good either

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Old 03-16-2016, 01:02 AM   #19
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I think the biggest thing holding battling back is these hour long battles. If these shits were edited down and you could get through them in 10-15 minutes without all the bullshit it would be much more popular. The average person doesn't have that kind of attention span anymore. if someone started a league with short round times and heavier editing they could make a killing
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Old 03-16-2016, 01:04 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by questmcody View Post
It seems like there is a thin line between making money and preserving the art form when it comes to battle rap. It seems like battle rappers and battle fans have a love/hate relationship. Personally I love the support, the criticism and even the trolling involved with this art form. The trouble I have is when people vilify those that have some sense of business acumen and label them as greedy individuals.

Are fans just as greedy as the battlers?

To my knowledge the average battlers performing on one of the "Big 3" battle leagues are pulling in approximately $1,500-5,000 per battle. At 5 battles a year, that puts them at $25k MAX from the leagues, that are also often vilified because of their business dealing. $25,000.....That's below the poverty level if that's your only source of income. Now, most battlers, regardless to what you believe have a hustle. Some work a regular job while others have legal and/or illegal outlets to make money. How much do we as fans support the actual battler? Don't get me wrong, a lot of this falls on the battler. A battler has to come up with worthwhile ways for his or her fans to support them as well, but are fans even looking to support a battler in a tangible way?

Are battle rap fans so used to getting free art, packaged as "entertainment" that they scoff at the idea of having to spend money?

Are leagues easier to be loyal to than battlers are?


What kind of fan are you?

Do fans support battlers as individuals?

What are some of the ways a battler can gain your support outside of the ring?

Keep it fun guys
youtube is the main platform right for battle rap..thats where we watch all this shit (for free) i think ppvs n shit go above and beyond in supporting.

i think battlers could do much much more to make their own youtube platform but also just gain a following as individuals (many ppl make comfortable living making daily videos..most are RANDOM ppl)

i think for example if rone vlogged his daily life 20 mins a day and cut it to 10 minutes and uploaded every day he would gain outside of the battle rap circle

i dont think its on us AT ALL money wise. for the prices ppl are being paid and want to be paid, battle rap has to become bigger in general it has to attract more ppl.

i know ppl especially here hate to hear this and u touched on preserving the culture but nice peter the epic battle guy all details aside......is a MILLIONAIRE off battle rap. a MILLIONAIRE cuz he appealed to the platform.. maybe its possible to do that witout "sellin out" or getting near that
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Old 03-16-2016, 01:05 AM   #21
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I think the biggest thing holding battling back is these hour long battles. If these shits were edited down and you could get through them in 10-15 minutes without all the bullshit it would be much more popular. The average person doesn't have that kind of attention span anymore. if someone started a league with short round times and heavier editing they could make a killing

i strongly agree with this. every1 involved is so against it tho
super realistic fix tbh

and youtube did change their monetization so longer videos = more cash

imagine everythig included 12 minutes tops per battle? youtube viewers may actually wanna see that
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Old 03-16-2016, 01:19 AM   #22
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if money is on the line, battlers behave much more competitively. We removed that with today's version of people just expecting to be paid, and whether they do mediocre or do great, they keep gettin paid and booked. I'm not here to knock any man's hustle. Get the most u can. I would tell my son the same. But it hurts the artform when people have lowered their standards and are willing to mail it in. Let's not at all ignore how terrible guys like Verb, rex, lux, clips etc have become just by doin the bare minimum with their performances. And when top guys are unwilling to battle newer, hungrier, and more affordable talent, this prevents folks from testing their real worth. Big names, who seldom will battle new talent for fear of diluting their "stock" and charge insane pricetags will bankrupt the league and not give two shits how their performances turn out vs new talent. It cheats fans that expect to see the best of these battlers. That's not fair to the leagues that book these top guys, but more importantly it cheats the fans who attend and take time to see these top names perform. That's been my biggest gripe with this shit.

I've followed the scene for close to 2 decades. I've seen many leagues come and go. The problem iwas always financing the events. The last 6 years we've seen many leagues fall off, and largely becuz cost of business has become unsustainable for leagues to stay afloat. The biggest costs today are the battlers. No question. I want the best battles to happen, but not at the risk of seeing the only few leagues creating the content to go bankrupt.

PPV has offered the best new source of income. I am clueless at how much that is grossing to keep things afloat. So hopefully that helps both the battlers and the leagues to sustain themselves longer. But everyone knows the battlers will want a piece of that ppv action inevitably, and will push the leagues toward breaking even or worse, faltering. The artform will only continue if we can have people organize the best battles possible
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Old 03-16-2016, 02:33 AM   #23
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I think the biggest thing holding battling back is these hour long battles. If these shits were edited down and you could get through them in 10-15 minutes without all the bullshit it would be much more popular. The average person doesn't have that kind of attention span anymore. if someone started a league with short round times and heavier editing they could make a killing
This all seems pretty counterintuitive when you consider that the platform with the largest subcribership regularly has battles upwards of 20-25 minutes (not including promos).

Meanwhile, all the platforms that insist on having 1:30-2 min rounds /10-15 min battles are not getting as many views.

I mean, that might make sense for battles with people that no one cares about, but I can't see a high profile battle like Calicoe vs Tay Roc, for example, being only 10-15 minutes. That's super lame, imo. It looks like the longer format is just more popular, even if you don't particularly care for it.
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Old 03-16-2016, 02:41 AM   #24
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This all seems pretty counterintuitive when you consider that the platform with the largest subcribership regularly has battles upwards of 20-25 minutes (not including promos).

Meanwhile, all the platforms that insist on having 1:30-2 min rounds /10-15 min battles are not getting as many views.

I mean, that might make sense for battles with people that no one cares about, but I can't see a high profile battle like Calicoe vs Tay Roc, for example, being only 10-15 minutes. That's super lame, imo. It looks like the longer format is just more popular, even if you don't particularly care for it.
And yet the most popular league is still barely even popular on the Internet.

You def right that to the dedicated fan of battle rap the length doesn't matter, but as far as branching out and becoming bigger than it is right now?

They'd be able to pull in more casual fans with shorter battles, who would then turn to the longer battles once they become a fan of battling.

Theres no reason to get rid of long battles all together though, even if you don't like them no one can reasonably deny their success within the community.
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Old 03-16-2016, 02:44 AM   #25
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This all seems pretty counterintuitive when you consider that the platform with the largest subcribership regularly has battles upwards of 20-25 minutes (not including promos).

Meanwhile, all the platforms that insist on having 1:30-2 min rounds /10-15 min battles are not getting as many views.

I mean, that might make sense for battles with people that no one cares about, but I can't see a high profile battle like Calicoe vs Tay Roc, for example, being only 10-15 minutes. That's super lame, imo. It looks like the longer format is just more popular, even if you don't particularly care for it.
yeah if you want to be as big as URL then that's fine but if you want to be big as the other youtube channels you have to shorten it up, that's all there is to it
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:00 AM   #26
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A lot in the OP, so I'm just gonna answer each question, individually


Are fans just as greedy as the battlers?

In general, I don't think fans OR battlers are especially greedy. I mean, a guy like mook might seem greedy to some, but to me, it seems like he's bringing more money to the game for everyone. If a guy like mook was battling for only 5k, mid tier guys would only be getting like $500 or some shit. If that.

Not even sure how a fan can be greedy, tbr.

How much do we as fans support the actual battler?

How much should we support the actual battler? Serious question. We watch the battles... That's not enough?

A battler has to come up with worthwhile ways for his or her fans to support them as well, but are fans even looking to support a battler in a tangible way?

Do fans have an obligation to financially support battlers? That's also a serious question. Because I don't see any other people on youtube asking for anything else except for to like or subscribe to their videos. Why are battle rappers different?

Are battle rap fans so used to getting free art, packaged as "entertainment" that they scoff at the idea of having to spend money?

Spend money on what, exactly?

Are leagues easier to be loyal to than battlers are?

Never thought about it, but taking a look at certain online communities, it would appear so. For instance, Head Ice became a kotd fan favorite over the last year, and this is in spite of his subject matter and image being completely incompatible with the majority of the rest of the kotd fan favorites.

What kind of fan are you?

Hm. Idk.

Do fans support battlers as individuals?

I support about 98% of people associated with battle rap and fans thereof. In spirit, tho.

What are some of the ways a battler can gain your support outside of the ring?

They already got it. If they want more of my money, I guess they gotta sell me something I can use.
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:10 AM   #27
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And yet the most popular league is still barely even popular on the Internet.

You def right that to the dedicated fan of battle rap the length doesn't matter, but as far as branching out and becoming bigger than it is right now?

They'd be able to pull in more casual fans with shorter battles, who would then turn to the longer battles once they become a fan of battling.

Theres no reason to get rid of long battles all together though, even if you don't like them no one can reasonably deny their success within the community.
Yea, I don't have a problem with there being more short battles. I just hope that the high-profile battles (pretty much the only new ones I watch nowadays) don't go anywhere.

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yeah if you want to be as big as URL then that's fine but if you want to be big as the other youtube channels you have to shorten it up, that's all there is to it
I hear you, and I understand the point from a capitalistic angle, but I just feel like it's only a step or two away from Epic Rap Battles. Ironically, the most epic rap battles are actually some of the longest, and more serious ones, i.e., lux vs cal, diz vs canibus, hollow vs lux, etc..
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:14 AM   #28
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:26 AM   #29
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yeah if you want to be as big as URL then that's fine but if you want to be big as the other youtube channels you have to shorten it up, that's all there is to it

exactly on point
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Old 03-16-2016, 04:19 AM   #30
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How much do we as fans support the actual battler?

if we watch them, we're supporting them. but as fans, we don't owe battlers anything and vice versa.

A battler has to come up with worthwhile ways for his or her fans to support them as well, but are fans even looking to support a battler in a tangible way?

depends what the product is.

for example, pat stay is one of my favorite battle rappers but i wouldn't be caught dead wearing "sucka free boss" garb. i wouldn't buy (hypothetically speaking here) a poster with his picture either lol. however, i'd definitely buy an album of his if one is to ever drop. dude makes dope music.

another example: if bender had his art manufactured, i'd buy a piece of his work if i'd be able to make use of it. i'm not a fan of his music (it just isn't my style), but i'd definitely cop a flight distance CD if i stumbled across one at a merch stand.

i never bought a product of a specific battler. but if i am ever to do so, it wouldn't be because of an obligation to support them for giving me free entertainment. it'd be out of genuine support and appreciation for what they do and/or a genuine interest in their product.

Are battle rap fans so used to getting free art, packaged as "entertainment" that they scoff at the idea of having to spend money?

many do when it comes to PPVs, hence why bootlegs exist.

Are leagues easier to be loyal to than battlers are?

yes. the big 3 leagues have been putting out consistently great events for years now. that fact is unlikely to change (unless their staffs undergo negative difference and grind time themselves). i'll be a loyal supporter of KOTD, URL, and DF. battlers, on the other hand, come and go, lose momentum, fall off, etc. i'm not going to continue to support a battler i have little interest in watching anymore -- unless the battler has had a significant impact on my experience as a fan. if, say, b-magic drops a shirt tomorrow, i'll order one as long as it isn't ridiculously cringeworthy.

What kind of fan are you?

a picky one. i consider myself a battle rap fan who's decently knowledgable about battle rap, but my pickiness in taste prevents me from expanding outside of what i usually watch. far from a diehard fan. i mainly stick to watching only a few of guys in URL, KOTD, and DF. also, i find a lot of battle rap difficult to watch. so i guess that says a lot about where i'm coming from.

Do fans support battlers as individuals?

depends on how battlers market themselves, reach towards their audience, whether or not they even have a way in which fans can directly support them, etc. typically, battlers who have fans directly supporting them are 1) super talented as battlers, 2) on social media connecting with their audience, and 3) have a product for sale that appeals to their demographic.

What are some of the ways a battler can gain your support outside of the ring?

first and foremost: be an enjoyable battler and make me a fan.

have a product that is USEFUL (or at least reasonable) and market it effectively; it doesn't even have to do with battle rap. like i said above, bender's art is dope. hell, i hate cliche and mindless phrases, but i'll definitely buy a LOM shirt if the price is right.

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Old 03-16-2016, 04:36 AM   #31
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How much do we as fans support the actual battler?

if we watch them, we're supporting them. but as fans, we don't owe battlers anything and vice versa.

A battler has to come up with worthwhile ways for his or her fans to support them as well, but are fans even looking to support a battler in a tangible way?

depends what the product is.

for example, pat stay is one of my favorite battle rappers but i wouldn't be caught dead wearing "sucka free boss" garb. i wouldn't buy (hypothetically speaking here) a poster with his picture either lol. however, i'd definitely buy an album of his if one is to ever drop. dude makes dope music.

another example: if bender had his art manufactured, i'd buy a piece of his work if i'd be able to make use of it. i'm not a fan of his music (it just isn't my style), but i'd definitely cop a flight distance CD if i stumbled across one at a merch stand.

i never bought a product of a specific battler. but if i am ever to do so, it wouldn't be because of an obligation to support them for giving me free entertainment. it'd be out of genuine support and appreciation for what they do and/or a genuine interest in their product.

Are battle rap fans so used to getting free art, packaged as "entertainment" that they scoff at the idea of having to spend money?

many do when it comes to PPVs, hence why bootlegs exist.

Are leagues easier to be loyal to than battlers are?

yes. the big 3 leagues have been putting out consistently great events for years now. that fact is unlikely to change (unless their staffs undergo negative difference and grind time themselves). i'll be a loyal supporter of KOTD, URL, and DF. battlers, on the other hand, come and go, lose momentum, fall off, etc. i'm not going to continue to support a battler i have little interest in watching anymore -- unless the battler has had a significant impact on my experience as a fan. if, say, b-magic drops a shirt tomorrow, i'll order one as long as it isn't ridiculously cringeworthy.

What kind of fan are you?

a picky one. i consider myself a battle rap fan who's decently knowledgable about battle rap, but my pickiness in taste prevents me from expanding outside of what i usually watch. far from a diehard fan. i mainly stick to watching only a few of guys in URL, KOTD, and DF. also, i find a lot of battle rap difficult to watch. so i guess that says a lot about where i'm coming from.

Do fans support battlers as individuals?

depends on how battlers market themselves, reach towards their audience, whether or not they even have a way in which fans can directly support them, etc. typically, battlers who have fans directly supporting them are 1) super talented as battlers, 2) on social media connecting with their audience, and 3) have a product for sale that appeals to their demographic.

What are some of the ways a battler can gain your support outside of the ring?

first and foremost: be an enjoyable battler and make me a fan.

have a product that is USEFUL (or at least reasonable) and market it effectively; it doesn't even have to do with battle rap. like i said above, bender's art is dope. hell, i hate cliche and mindless phrases, but i'll definitely buy a LOM shirt if the price is right.
Huh... I agree with a lot of what you just said..

Hoping more people will respond directly to those questions because its intersting to see where people are coming from on those issues.
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Old 03-16-2016, 04:48 AM   #32
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Are fans just as greedy as the battlers?

Depends how you define "greedy". As much as battlers want a pay cheque, fans themselves need to spend money on PPVs, live events, etc. and that comes out of our income.

How much do we as fans support the actual battler? Don't get me wrong, a lot of this falls on the battler. A battler has to come up with worthwhile ways for his or her fans to support them as well, but are fans even looking to support a battler in a tangible way?

Only if it said support is of any interest to the fans. When I watch youtube content and I subscribe to a channel, I ultimately decide if I want to buy merch. I ultimately decide if music is worth listening to. Just because I support X battler in battling does NOT make me obligated to support X battler in anything else.

Are battle rap fans so used to getting free art, packaged as "entertainment" that they scoff at the idea of having to spend money?

Yes and no. In a technological era, where bootlegs exist, this is a problem. Unless advertisements/sponsors really appealed to the fan base, then the idea of spending money as a fan will be scoffed at.

Are leagues easier to be loyal to than battlers are?

Yes and no. Put non-interesting battlers on a league and the league will get negative feedback. However, in a case where the demand of the battle is high ....diz vs cass, lux vs hollow, we will watch the battle no matter what league it is on because of the status of the battlers/matchup.

What kind of fan are you?

One that just watches what I see because I like it. Like literally every other youtube channel I`m subscribed to.

Do fans support battlers as individuals?

If we know them personally, probably. If not, I think we just see X battler as just a performer or stand-up comedian. Russell Peters isnt exactly supported as an individual but rather supported for his (lack of?) comedic talent.

What are some of the ways a battler can gain your support outside of the ring?

Get us interested in whatever. If an audience isnt remotely interested in what a battler has to say outside of the ring, chances are slim that they'll gain support.
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Old 03-16-2016, 06:21 AM   #33
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Are fans just as greedy as the battlers?
Are fans greedy though? In the sense that people bitch about battles not being good while not actually paying for anything, sure but on the same ticket, we are contributing by viewing, regardless of whether a single view is worth a fraction of a cent or not. At the same time, I'd put it on the leagues to devise a method of attaining the necessary income in order to put on events and book battlers- they control how much they're willing to pay battlers for a performance and help battlers reach their respective audiences while battlers control that performance itself in terms of quality and saturation (not fucking up/battling too much and wearing out their appeal to fans) plus their personal viewer demographic (crossover fans from other leagues, for example). In all seriousness, I don't think the fans have much control over much more than helping illustrate the demand for certain battlers. The leagues and battlers themselves are the entities with the greatest control. If the fans want a Battler A performance, but Battler A wants a million dollars from League X, League X has the power to say "fuck that, we're not paying anyone a million fucking dollars for a 15 minute performance".

$25,000.....That's below the poverty level if that's your only source of income.
Are battlers spending 40 hrs/week every week of the year on writing battling material? Probably not. But wait, that's not applicable since it's a commission-based entertainment industry; Battlers control their product. They choose how many performances they want to do, and how much they want for each one, while attempting to maintain their value to leagues while they do so. With all due respect, it's not our business to worry about that as fans/viewers. Battlers and leagues have to come to an understanding in regards to fair pay. We as fans can tell leagues to book certain battlers all we want, but ultimately it doesn't matter what we want if the respective leagues don't actually want to/can't afford to.

How much do we as fans support the actual battler?
are fans even looking to support a battler in a tangible way?

I go to local (Oakland/San Jose) events, I buy merch on occasion, I buy albums if I think it's good. It depends on the person. Fans may look to support battlers, but it's the job of battlers to offer desirable opportunities to do so.

Are battle rap fans so used to getting free art, packaged as "entertainment" that they scoff at the idea of having to spend money?
Some, sure. It's the leagues that decide to give out their product for (basically) free on youtube, though. That definitely makes it so the majority of battle fans are spoiled. Why would you pay for a sandwich on one block when you can get a burger on the next block for free? In this sense, you have to make the "sandwich" (aka the things that fans can spend money on) worth spending money on. If it's something fans don't like or want, why would they buy it?

Are leagues easier to be loyal to than battlers are?
Depends. most viewers have favorite battlers that they'll watch no matter what league they perform on. I've seen a fair few people who only watch URL though so go figure. Leagues make it easy to be a viewer because they constantly promote upcoming events/battles. A lot of battlers don't. There's also a lot of battlers who won't show up for their performances, so it's easy to be more loyal to the leagues in that sense too.

What kind of fan are you?
An interested one. This a forum based around rap battles, after all.

Do fans support battlers as individuals?
For the most part, fans don't tend to know battlers on a personal level. We aren't required to sing battler praises or do anything that benefits them in any way at all. We can, and we may choose to, especially on sites like this, but strictly speaking, battlers should be looking at their fans as prospective customers. Battlers should network with and/or utilize them as potential resources if it lines up with their goals.

What are some of the ways a battler can gain your support outside of the ring?
Make (good) music. Like any business or individual, battlers should be investing in themselves in a way that they can grow, be that musically or otherwise. If a battler has a lot of fans, they should take advantage of that in some way.
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Old 03-16-2016, 01:57 PM   #34
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These are good reads. Keep'em coming
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:43 PM   #35
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25 grand a year isn't below poverty level, surely? Especially if you don't have children. Just because you can't afford the finest luxuries doesn't make you impoverished.
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Old 03-16-2016, 05:14 PM   #36
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Honestly, the fans don't owe battle rappers anything at all.

Especially when you take into account people like Caustic have admitted to writing their shit the night before a battle. I also have no clue what the travel expenses/hotel arrangements are. But lets say they're paid by the Don't Flop or KOTD in this case.

You get to travel the world (Canada/UK) for free, doing shit you're good at (and I assume like doing), with your friends, that takes one night to prepare for, and get $1,000 a pop for it.

So, in Caustic's case... He can battle 15 times a year and get $15,000 on top of his day job. That's solid income for a side gig, assuming you do something else beyond battling which I believe you would have to in order to make a living worth a damn.

Once a battler is considered mid to top tier, its up to that individual to make themselves marketable/a viable business.

Off the top of my head, Conceited, Arsonal, Hollow, Diz, Dumbfoundead, 360, Shotty, Lunar C have kind of figured that part out. They ventured into other outlets (clothing, acting, battle leagues, actual music) beyond battling after building their names up. Also, they are pretty much widely respected by everyone and don't play to just one niche or league for the most part. You also don't see them on every single card, if battling at all.

In Caustic's case, he uses a lot of shock value stuff. Great for battle rap reactions but stupid as fuck for other opportunities outside of the ring. The stand-up comedy bit is pretty much the only area you can get away with using that same battle rap persona.

People can say all they want about Mook but he's probably one of the few battle rappers who understand how business works. Supply and fucking demand. If he can hold out and get meaningful money, good on Mook. More power to em.

We have what we call a surplus of DNA and many other rappers. Rapping for a paycheck when no one gives a fuck about them. That's fine, but if you're watered down, not in demand by the fans, and aren't working a 9 to 5, then what are you bitching about? You get to recite lyrics for a living. In Clips case, lyrics u usually just make up on the JERSEY...

Conceited has kind of mastered social media as far as battle rappers go. He's smart. It's like DJ Khaled on snapchat. Figure out what works and tap into that niche.

The leagues give you the platform and then it's up to you to go out and make your own money. At the end of the day, it's just like anything else. Some people have the whole package and some people don't. You can have as many "bars" as you want and not be worth what you think you're worth. The market decides that. The fans decide that.

I work a 9 to 5, with a side business as a web developer, and I make pretty good money. I smoke pot before going to sleep at night, every night.

But I sure as hell don't sit around smoking blunts all day like most of these battle rappers, making vlogs, expecting the world to hand me something. Or diss videos or any of that shit.

Don't bitch and moan about income from battle rap if that's all you do. Battle rap should be approached by battlers as a business opportunity, not a full-time job.
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Old 03-17-2016, 12:50 PM   #37
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Ever since money has become a big key to people battling it's gone down hill. I get being paid for your travel and some for your performance but the amount of money these guys get is ridiculous. There are better people IMO who will do it for less. I don't care what your name is. Only a few are worth paying for (Saurus, Illmac are good no matter where they go). And to Fresco's point about hour long battles I couldn't agree more. I'll give a battle 15-20 minutes. I don't have that type of time to sit and watch a battle for an hour. It's not something I can turn to my co worker and talk about during the day.
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Old 03-17-2016, 02:20 PM   #38
6000GP
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6000GP is a vet in their local league6000GP is a vet in their local league6000GP is a vet in their local league6000GP is a vet in their local league6000GP is a vet in their local league6000GP is a vet in their local league6000GP is a vet in their local league6000GP is a vet in their local league6000GP is a vet in their local league
Quote:
Originally Posted by vokab206 View Post
Ever since money has become a big key to people battling it's gone down hill. I get being paid for your travel and some for your performance but the amount of money these guys get is ridiculous. There are better people IMO who will do it for less. I don't care what your name is. Only a few are worth paying for (Saurus, Illmac are good no matter where they go).


Battling is bigger and better today than it ever was in the past, and the market determines the battlers' values.
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Old 03-17-2016, 06:05 PM   #39
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Well look.. if artists on Spotify isn't getting more than your average battler it's up to the battlers and the leagues to try and profit in other ways, just as a recording artist. And the leagues are doing great work. Noone wants it to end, or to lower the quality.. just as noone want free music on Spotify to end. But as mans use of internet clearly is in development we're just gonna have to fight thru this phase.

Yeah you could argue that fans should pay more, but if that's the case I should pay more for music, tv, video, games, software and probably alot of other stuff aswell.

Only thing battlers and leagues can hope for is to increase popularity, so other revenues become profitable. We can't have a base on like a million viewers and what.. 20 000 people? that goes to shows and expect it to feed several leagues and god knows how many rappers.
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Old 03-17-2016, 10:17 PM   #40
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grandgroove is better than Grind Time Australiagrandgroove is better than Grind Time Australia
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Originally Posted by Dear Diary View Post
do you think someone deserves to make their entire living for reciting manpoems for 20 minutes 5 times a year?
Not answering for wfm, but a person is with worth whatever they feel they're worth. If another party agrees, and money exchanges for services, good on 'em. Also, caveat emptor/YMMV

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