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Why DFs PPV model shits on KOTDs from a business perspective


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Old 06-11-2015, 02:03 PM   #1
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Why DFs PPV model shits on KOTDs from a business perspective

First off, @AVOCADO @King Fly this has nothing to do with quality or turnaround, KOTD is just as good as that if not better so don't be mad <3.

This kinda stems from Ganiks rant on Jae Millz asking for 100k, but there is one main reason why DFs PPV model is better business wise...intel. I've been to probably 20 or so live events, bought at least double that in PPVs, and it occurred to me that at no point have I ever been asked what battler(s) made me decide to pay to go to the event/watch the ppv. That's pretty bizarre to me, because it's 2015 and the main metric for a battlers worth is apparently still YouTube views that don't generate much money on their own and likely have very little correlation to the money actually being generated from the PPV/at the door. They obviously provide some value in terms of league exposure but even that's impossible to quantify because you have no idea how many of those views actually represent new fans for the LEAGUE. Shotty/Hitman is at half a million, I bring this one up cause it's Hitman's debut on KOTD...but how many of those people watched for Hitman and how many of those people will stick around with KOTD now vs. how many just watched Hitman.

DFs model of allowing people to buy single battles is not only better for the consumer (and id be willing to bet it ends up generating more money for the company too, but obviously i don't have data to back that up) but it gives them a concrete way of knowing how much these battlers are actually worth. Even with a small sample size...12 or so events where your main names appears 2-4 times each, you can get a pretty solid idea of who people are paying to see. You track that data over 2-3 years and you can essentially tell a battler "here's the average money you make us on ppv and as such you're worth x".

Even going beyond that to live events...most leagues sell their tickets online, they get emailed to you. That means the league should have your email. So why hasn't anyone ever bothered to send an email saying "hey, thanks for buying a ticket to the event, we'd really appreciate if you filled out this quick survey it'll help us grow this movement and bring you even better events in the future"? It doesn't even have to be anything complicated, just a list of the battlers on the card and ask us to indicate which ones actually influenced us to buy a ticket. Even if only 25% of people bothered to answer, over a couple years that's a lot to work with. It let's you know what battlers are draws in what cities. You combine that with the PPV data and you can strategically make cards. ie. We know Arsonal is a big draw in California but not in Toronto, he also drives a lot of ppv sales in the Northeast, so you book him for Cali because then you get the max from the door + the PPV sales.

Or, you look at the PPV sales and notice that people in Toronto are buying Bigg K's PPV battles when he's on Cali cards. Common sense, fly him up to Toronto (yeah i know he can't get here, jsut an example).

tl;dr if you even collected half complete data on all this shit over a decent period of time you could have a much better idea of what people are actually worth. you get someone who's even halfway competent with excel and ideally vba and they should be able to figure it out overnight. hell, id do that shit for free on my downtime at work.

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Old 06-11-2015, 02:16 PM   #2
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:23 PM   #3
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Good post. I also appreciate the way Dont Flop is doing the PPV's, although the price for single battles is rather steep sometimes. Still better to have the option of buying one, two or all of the battles - whichever you want.

And crazy good points on the intel and research. Costs next to nothing to gather it, and it definitely helps in molding future events and PPV's.
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:34 PM   #4
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haha glad you guys like it.

should also mention the impact this would probably have on overall profit. once you explain to battlers that their fee is directly impacted by the sales they bring in they will step up the promotion.

you can also use it to make cards more efficient...for example, you notice that two of the higher paid battlers have an 80% overlap in who they're bringing in at the door, it doesn't make sense to book both of them cause you're getting diminishing returns.
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:36 PM   #5
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OP is on point tbh

DF's model is great - their PPV prices are too high frankly, but the idea of selling individual battles as well as complete events must be useful. The major issue with it is obviously it won't be as successful with the KOTD live PPVs, as they'll be saying you can risk the whole lot to see it as it happens, or wait til the next day and cherry pick the battles you've heard are good. Presumably the cost of putting it on live would make this an issue.

Also, the single battle purchasing isn't the best way of finding out who's popular necessarily - it'd look a lot better for say, Diz, who gets very well liked opponents. Same for guys like Nitty - they may have a lot of battles bought, but when he's battling the likes of Magic and O Red, is that representative?

Saying that, there's zero reason why the survey shouldn't be done. Must be easy - set up a survey with each battler on it, and send out an email automatically once a PPV is purchased, asking them to indicate which battlers convinced them to buy the show. Simple but effective market research.
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:39 PM   #6
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casual as always on point


i think the individual battle structure can even help sell the whole ppv, someone might look at it an be like "i really wanna watch 3 of the battles and can wait for the rest on youtube" but then when they realize it will be just a few more dollars/pounds/canadian euros to get the whole ppv they might just say fuck it and buy the whole event.
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:41 PM   #7
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OP on point af
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:41 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Rusty Shackleford View Post
OP is on point tbh

DF's model is great - their PPV prices are too high frankly, but the idea of selling individual battles as well as complete events must be useful. The major issue with it is obviously it won't be as successful with the KOTD live PPVs, as they'll be saying you can risk the whole lot to see it as it happens, or wait til the next day and cherry pick the battles you've heard are good. Presumably the cost of putting it on live would make this an issue.

Also, the single battle purchasing isn't the best way of finding out who's popular necessarily - it'd look a lot better for say, Diz, who gets very well liked opponents. Same for guys like Nitty - they may have a lot of battles bought, but when he's battling the likes of Magic and O Red, is that representative?

Saying that, there's zero reason why the survey shouldn't be done. Must be easy - set up a survey with each battler on it, and send out an email automatically once a PPV is purchased, asking them to indicate which battlers convinced them to buy the show. Simple but effective market research.
Yeah, the live part would definitely be a bit of a hurdle. Still, you could give these guys the same survey as the people who went live, get the same intel. I'm sure there's also a large part of the fanbase that buys the ppv after the fact, so you could definitely separate them at that point.

For the second point, yeah it's definitely hard to judge with a sample of only one battle. Like you mentioned, if Rum Nitty battles Loaded Lux you obviously can't take that data as being accurate for Rum Nitty. But once you have a larger sample size (ie. 3+ battles for each battler against various opponents) you can start to get a very good ballpark. It's not too hard using excel to combine all that data and aggregate it in a way that nails it down to a single battler. You just need enough data.
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:43 PM   #9
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Also, the single battle purchasing isn't the best way of finding out who's popular necessarily - it'd look a lot better for say, Diz, who gets very well liked opponents. Same for guys like Nitty - they may have a lot of battles bought, but when he's battling the likes of Magic and O Red, is that representative?
it could also help though, lets go with nitty and magic as an example. say magic gets 1000 ppv buys on averages, then his nitty battle goes up and it only gets 700, even if thats a rise in buys for nitty its clear that people dont fuck with him like that and you dont book him with big names for a while.
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:45 PM   #10
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:51 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dank Schrader View Post
it could also help though, lets go with nitty and magic as an example. say magic gets 1000 ppv buys on averages, then his nitty battle goes up and it only gets 700, even if thats a rise in buys for nitty its clear that people dont fuck with him like that and you dont book him with big names for a while.
Really good point there actually. You can get a pretty good gauge on what big name battlers tend to help people progress. ie. Who has a dedicated fanbase that is also willing to give lesser names a fair chance.

Maybe you notice that when your mid tier battlers do really good against arsonal they tend to experience a bump in popularity for their subsequent battles. So now you know that arsonals fans are willing to give other dudes a chance depending on their style (obviously you can figure out which style this works for based on the data too).
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:53 PM   #12
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Yeah, the live part would definitely be a bit of a hurdle. Still, you could give these guys the same survey as the people who went live, get the same intel. I'm sure there's also a large part of the fanbase that buys the ppv after the fact, so you could definitely separate them at that point.

For the second point, yeah it's definitely hard to judge with a sample of only one battle. Like you mentioned, if Rum Nitty battles Loaded Lux you obviously can't take that data as being accurate for Rum Nitty. But once you have a larger sample size (ie. 3+ battles for each battler against various opponents) you can start to get a very good ballpark. It's not too hard using excel to combine all that data and aggregate it in a way that nails it down to a single battler. You just need enough data.
Yeah this is it, just needs it to be carried out along a period of time. I think emails to PPV purchasers/surveys at live events are the way forward for sure - must be a lot more relevant to them than seeing feedback on forums, talkback etc. While all feedback is important they should be focusing on paying customers


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dank Schrader View Post
it could also help though, lets go with nitty and magic as an example. say magic gets 1000 ppv buys on averages, then his nitty battle goes up and it only gets 700, even if thats a rise in buys for nitty its clear that people dont fuck with him like that and you dont book him with big names for a while.
this is a very good point. definitely show who the fans are responding to, if the performances are good it could indicate that they need a lower level of opposition. as long as dope rappers still get good battles, and not just the ones with a lot of friends who'll buy their battles, it could be invaluable info
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:55 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Shackleford View Post
Yeah this is it, just needs it to be carried out along a period of time. I think emails to PPV purchasers/surveys at live events are the way forward for sure - must be a lot more relevant to them than seeing feedback on forums, talkback etc. While all feedback is important they should be focusing on paying customers
The talkback/forum feedback is definitely useful. But like you said you don't know who is paying and who isn't. And beyond that it would be extremely time consuming to actually gather, parse, and format that data in a way that you could effectively work with it.
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:56 PM   #14
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Old 06-11-2015, 03:00 PM   #15
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Great post actually

Anything involving avo is automatically better, but I agree about the metrics
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Old 06-11-2015, 03:03 PM   #16
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Old 06-11-2015, 03:58 PM   #17
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First off, @AVOCADO @King Fly this has nothing to do with quality or turnaround, KOTD is just as good as that if not better so don't be mad <3.

This kinda stems from Ganiks rant on Jae Millz asking for 100k, but there is one main reason why DFs PPV model is better business wise...intel. I've been to probably 20 or so live events, bought at least double that in PPVs, and it occurred to me that at no point have I ever been asked what battler(s) made me decide to pay to go to the event/watch the ppv. That's pretty bizarre to me, because it's 2015 and the main metric for a battlers worth is apparently still YouTube views that don't generate much money on their own and likely have very little correlation to the money actually being generated from the PPV/at the door. They obviously provide some value in terms of league exposure but even that's impossible to quantify because you have no idea how many of those views actually represent new fans for the LEAGUE. Shotty/Hitman is at half a million, I bring this one up cause it's Hitman's debut on KOTD...but how many of those people watched for Hitman and how many of those people will stick around with KOTD now vs. how many just watched Hitman.

DFs model of allowing people to buy single battles is not only better for the consumer (and id be willing to bet it ends up generating more money for the company too, but obviously i don't have data to back that up) but it gives them a concrete way of knowing how much these battlers are actually worth. Even with a small sample size...12 or so events where your main names appears 2-4 times each, you can get a pretty solid idea of who people are paying to see. You track that data over 2-3 years and you can essentially tell a battler "here's the average money you make us on ppv and as such you're worth x".

Even going beyond that to live events...most leagues sell their tickets online, they get emailed to you. That means the league should have your email. So why hasn't anyone ever bothered to send an email saying "hey, thanks for buying a ticket to the event, we'd really appreciate if you filled out this quick survey it'll help us grow this movement and bring you even better events in the future"? It doesn't even have to be anything complicated, just a list of the battlers on the card and ask us to indicate which ones actually influenced us to buy a ticket. Even if only 25% of people bothered to answer, over a couple years that's a lot to work with. It let's you know what battlers are draws in what cities. You combine that with the PPV data and you can strategically make cards. ie. We know Arsonal is a big draw in California but not in Toronto, he also drives a lot of ppv sales in the Northeast, so you book him for Cali because then you get the max from the door + the PPV sales.

Or, you look at the PPV sales and notice that people in Toronto are buying Bigg K's PPV battles when he's on Cali cards. Common sense, fly him up to Toronto (yeah i know he can't get here, jsut an example).

tl;dr if you even collected half complete data on all this shit over a decent period of time you could have a much better idea of what people are actually worth. you get someone who's even halfway competent with excel and ideally vba and they should be able to figure it out overnight. hell, id do that shit for free on my downtime at work.


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Old 06-11-2015, 04:24 PM   #18
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Repped to the fullest. I know I'm not the first to think of it/mention it, but this is exactly what I was talking about in this thread:

http://rmbva.com/why-dont-flop-so-fa...296#post542296

After giving it thought, I feel like there's no way, KOTD hasn't at least considered the idea....if they haven't, they have some serious (business-related) issues.

I'd love to hear the reason behind deciding to have a shit (almost non-existent) web presence (I'm talking about a legit "web hub"---One site, where all content is archived, merch is available, etc.), and more importantly, their decision to not offer "on-demand" battle purchases. It's such a no-brainer + fans have been asking for it. Unless there is a legit reason, why they can't do it, KOTD is either out of touch, or incompetent (from a business standpoint)...
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Old 06-11-2015, 04:53 PM   #19
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isn't the vote counter one mechanism they can use to determine interest in particular battlers/battles?
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Old 06-11-2015, 05:26 PM   #20
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I love buying one or 2 battles. Those are usually the only battles I care about.

I have bought some recent ppv's but I just don't have 7-8 hours to watch an event anymore, so sometimes i dont even get around to watching them even after pjrchasing them. A xouple of times when i finally got time to watch the vids in continuity, the actual releases started to be released, lol. It's even more daunting when the event is 2 days long and ur trying to fast forward through to find the good battles. The ability to replay the battles is of paramount importance to me cuz I can't ever watch these battles via live stream based on how long the events are, which is the main reason I couldn't cop the smack ppv becuz I just couldn't get free that day with the kid around to watch the battles without interuptions. If kotd made it available to pick and choose which battles to watch, WITH the ability to replay the videos, it would help other customers like myself who are time crunched with watchin an entire ppv, especially when u may only care about a couple of battles on the card.
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Old 06-11-2015, 05:33 PM   #21
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Old 06-11-2015, 05:35 PM   #22
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Old 06-11-2015, 05:47 PM   #23
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It's all about the Metadata!
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Old 06-11-2015, 06:05 PM   #24
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I think we can see how far the strategies are taking them too. DF's last round of uploads are all from Checkpoint 2, at what looks to be a huge packed club with an even more expensive looking stage and light setup.

KOTD's last event was in some dude's basement cause he paid for their previous event which was at a restaurant.
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Old 06-11-2015, 06:10 PM   #25
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DF's PPV model may be better than KOTD but theyre both totally different infrastructures

Live vs VOD

And btw this VOD style of PPV isnt new or distinguishes them from "everybody else"
Other leagues via Rap Grid have implemented this for quite some time probably before DF.

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Old 06-11-2015, 06:28 PM   #26
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Damn @Casual just snapped, take this rep>>>

Lots of good points that I think KOTD should honestly take into consideration

Only part I missed was the Organik/Jae Millz stuff, was that a thread on here? Millz was by far my favorite when I first started watching battles and I've always wanted to see him come back but no one is worth 100k for a battle.
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Old 06-11-2015, 06:30 PM   #27
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Nm just saw the thread I'm dumb
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Old 06-11-2015, 06:38 PM   #28
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Great post
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Old 06-11-2015, 07:52 PM   #29
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Casual the God poster.

But I disagree. Here's why.

A lot of times, people don't buy ppvs - not because they are cheap but because they are lazy. Setting up an account. Entering their credit card info. Etc.

Doesn't sound like a lot of work, but finding bootlegs for a single battle (especially a high profile one) is often less work.

Now considering that - bootlegs generally release the biggest battles first and there is a delay for others and some might not get released at all. So when you sell as a package (like kotd does) those trying to access the other battles automatically get the high profile ones as well.

Lemme example this with DF PHILLY. I could find ness/bill bootleg EASY....but maybe not dose/zm. So if I wanted dose/zm I would pay 5 dollars. However, if it was a kotd event, id have to pay for all
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Old 06-11-2015, 08:01 PM   #30
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Casual the God poster.

But I disagree. Here's why.

A lot of times, people don't buy ppvs - not because they are cheap but because they are lazy. Setting up an account. Entering their credit card info. Etc.

Doesn't sound like a lot of work, but finding bootlegs for a single battle (especially a high profile one) is often less work.

Now considering that - bootlegs generally release the biggest battles first and there is a delay for others and some might not get released at all. So when you sell as a package (like kotd does) those trying to access the other battles automatically get the high profile ones as well.

Lemme example this with DF PHILLY. I could find ness/bill bootleg EASY....but maybe not dose/zm. So if I wanted dose/zm I would pay 5 dollars. However, if it was a kotd event, id have to pay for all
Don't Flop does their PPVs through Vimeo and you can pay for them with a credit card or Pay Pal and save that to your account. I mean, I buy most stuff online now through Pay Pal so it's easy. Only reason I haven't bought more Don't Flop PPVs lately is that their prices have gone up way too high (I'm not paying 10$ for Bulletz vs Shuffle, even if I really want to watch it).

Tbh, I think that battlers and battle leagues should start revenue sharing and selling the battles individually. Problem I imagine is getting the battlers to accept it.

Also, I think the leagues have to figure out their pricing and experiment a bit more. Checkpoint 2 from DF was a PPV I would've bought if it was half the price; Blackout was more than I wanted to pay. I wonder how many people get bootlegs just because the price of the PPVs is too high.
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Old 06-11-2015, 08:17 PM   #31
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Casual the God poster.

But I disagree. Here's why.

A lot of times, people don't buy ppvs - not because they are cheap but because they are lazy. Setting up an account. Entering their credit card info. Etc.

Doesn't sound like a lot of work, but finding bootlegs for a single battle (especially a high profile one) is often less work.

Now considering that - bootlegs generally release the biggest battles first and there is a delay for others and some might not get released at all. So when you sell as a package (like kotd does) those trying to access the other battles automatically get the high profile ones as well.

Lemme example this with DF PHILLY. I could find ness/bill bootleg EASY....but maybe not dose/zm. So if I wanted dose/zm I would pay 5 dollars. However, if it was a kotd event, id have to pay for all
ah man you're the king, im just a court jester.

I definitely see your point, but I think you may be overstating it. It'd be cool to actually see the individual sales from a DF ppv and see what battle actually sold the most, I just can't imagine a world where dose/zm sold more than ness/bill, regardless of bootlegs.

Regardless though, it's something that would have to be considered.

I guess i'm in the opposite boat, I find it easier to just buy the ppv. If it's a battle that I'm not willing to pay a few bucks for then it's probably not a battle im willing to spend 30 minutes watching either (bootlegs at least, yt release is a bit different).

Bootlegs are unfortunate but it's not something you're ever going to stop. Every industry deals with it. Game of Thrones is the most bootlegged show ever, but it is also does the best numbers on HBO. Most of the time the stuff that's getting bootlegged the most is also the stuff that's getting bought the most.

Last edited by Casual; 06-11-2015 at 08:23 PM.
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Old 06-11-2015, 09:25 PM   #32
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Will probably never buy a live PPV, the response is usually 'not worth it'.

Buying individual battles the day after though? I've done that a few times now, always worth it.

Should be the standard IMO.

Never thought about it from a business owner's perspective before, but OP makes some great points.
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Old 06-11-2015, 09:26 PM   #33
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The talkback/forum feedback is definitely useful. But like you said you don't know who is paying and who isn't. And beyond that it would be extremely time consuming to actually gather, parse, and format that data in a way that you could effectively work with it.
Talkback isn't the best gauge because people are scared of disagreeing with "us". Don't get me wrong, I'm cool with a battle rap world decided totally by me, but I'm not sure it's the most representative sample
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Old 06-11-2015, 09:29 PM   #34
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faggots didnt even acknowledge my post!!!!
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Old 06-11-2015, 09:31 PM   #35
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This really incentivizes stacking cards. There would be so many cards where I'd just buy a battle or 2. Doing this also allows for cult hero sort of types to get a larger percentage of their fans to buy their battles, given that they're much cheaper. A guy like Mega or Farrell for example, have enough of an internet following to get 1-2 hundred to buy their battle alone
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Old 06-11-2015, 10:21 PM   #36
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+rep to casual for xcellent post
thanks for saying what was on my mind without me having to type for 20 minutes
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Old 06-11-2015, 11:07 PM   #37
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Old 06-11-2015, 11:29 PM   #38
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i agree. Eurgh def knows what he's doing
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Old 06-12-2015, 12:04 AM   #39
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First off, @AVOCADO @King Fly this has nothing to do with quality or turnaround, KOTD is just as good as that if not better so don't be mad <3.

This kinda stems from Ganiks rant on Jae Millz asking for 100k, but there is one main reason why DFs PPV model is better business wise...intel. I've been to probably 20 or so live events, bought at least double that in PPVs, and it occurred to me that at no point have I ever been asked what battler(s) made me decide to pay to go to the event/watch the ppv. That's pretty bizarre to me, because it's 2015 and the main metric for a battlers worth is apparently still YouTube views that don't generate much money on their own and likely have very little correlation to the money actually being generated from the PPV/at the door. They obviously provide some value in terms of league exposure but even that's impossible to quantify because you have no idea how many of those views actually represent new fans for the LEAGUE. Shotty/Hitman is at half a million, I bring this one up cause it's Hitman's debut on KOTD...but how many of those people watched for Hitman and how many of those people will stick around with KOTD now vs. how many just watched Hitman.

DFs model of allowing people to buy single battles is not only better for the consumer (and id be willing to bet it ends up generating more money for the company too, but obviously i don't have data to back that up) but it gives them a concrete way of knowing how much these battlers are actually worth. Even with a small sample size...12 or so events where your main names appears 2-4 times each, you can get a pretty solid idea of who people are paying to see. You track that data over 2-3 years and you can essentially tell a battler "here's the average money you make us on ppv and as such you're worth x".

Even going beyond that to live events...most leagues sell their tickets online, they get emailed to you. That means the league should have your email. So why hasn't anyone ever bothered to send an email saying "hey, thanks for buying a ticket to the event, we'd really appreciate if you filled out this quick survey it'll help us grow this movement and bring you even better events in the future"? It doesn't even have to be anything complicated, just a list of the battlers on the card and ask us to indicate which ones actually influenced us to buy a ticket. Even if only 25% of people bothered to answer, over a couple years that's a lot to work with. It let's you know what battlers are draws in what cities. You combine that with the PPV data and you can strategically make cards. ie. We know Arsonal is a big draw in California but not in Toronto, he also drives a lot of ppv sales in the Northeast, so you book him for Cali because then you get the max from the door + the PPV sales.

Or, you look at the PPV sales and notice that people in Toronto are buying Bigg K's PPV battles when he's on Cali cards. Common sense, fly him up to Toronto (yeah i know he can't get here, jsut an example).

tl;dr if you even collected half complete data on all this shit over a decent period of time you could have a much better idea of what people are actually worth. you get someone who's even halfway competent with excel and ideally vba and they should be able to figure it out overnight. hell, id do that shit for free on my downtime at work.
I had no idea that Don't Flop did that. Smart business.
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Old 06-12-2015, 12:12 AM   #40
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Casual the God poster.

But I disagree. Here's why.

A lot of times, people don't buy ppvs - not because they are cheap but because they are lazy. Setting up an account. Entering their credit card info. Etc.

Doesn't sound like a lot of work, but finding bootlegs for a single battle (especially a high profile one) is often less work.

Now considering that - bootlegs generally release the biggest battles first and there is a delay for others and some might not get released at all. So when you sell as a package (like kotd does) those trying to access the other battles automatically get the high profile ones as well.

Lemme example this with DF PHILLY. I could find ness/bill bootleg EASY....but maybe not dose/zm. So if I wanted dose/zm I would pay 5 dollars. However, if it was a kotd event, id have to pay for all
Casual makes some good points but I gotta agree with this. Every time I have bought a KOTD ppv I did so because the event as a package looked like it was worth my money to me, not because I wanted to see 1 battle badly enough that I was willing to pay for 6-7 others I don't really care about. Sure there was usually 1 or 2 battle's that i most looked forward to , but getting a few hours of entertainment out of the whole thing always made for an enjoyable sunday of watching battles. The live voting/chat also makes things more interesting as well.
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