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Old 09-12-2020, 03:33 PM   #1
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NORBES Suing URLtv for $40 MILLION

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Old 09-12-2020, 03:45 PM   #2
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never underestimate the obese street star. as much of a scumbag as norbes seems to be in the eyes of the culture, going after twork's BM is NOT illegal...but twork assaulting norbes is. norbes may have a case here especially if he has proof of ownership.
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Old 09-12-2020, 05:12 PM   #3
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never underestimate the obese street star. as much of a scumbag as norbes seems to be in the eyes of the culture, going after twork's BM is NOT illegal...but twork assaulting norbes is. norbes may have a case here especially if he has proof of ownership.
Norbes is a known slimeball but he was out in the field recruiting talent (for over a decade) and running the PG's etc.. only to be fired a week before the URL get a giant bag. He will win something in court
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Old 09-12-2020, 09:36 PM   #4
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Old 09-12-2020, 09:44 PM   #5
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This is gonna be interesting to see unfold, especially considering that from what I can tell, Norbes wasn't just fired from URL for the shit between him and the mother of Twork's kid.
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Old 09-14-2020, 12:31 AM   #6
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Norbes is a known slimeball but he was out in the field recruiting talent (for over a decade) and running the PG's etc.. only to be fired a week before the URL get a giant bag. He will win something in court
As much as I don't like Norbes, I think this is true. I didn't realize URL was pulling in those kinds of numbers though. 40 million is insane money unless URL makes money in other ways.
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Old 09-14-2020, 01:40 AM   #7
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As much as I don't like Norbes, I think this is true. I didn't realize URL was pulling in those kinds of numbers though. 40 million is insane money unless URL makes money in other ways.
When you get a minute, watch the interview with Caffeine's CEO that I posted yesterday. Once they begin talking about Ben's current work, monetization of battle rap is a primary part of the discussion. I was surprised by the different ways they plan on monetizing their content. I'd list them here, but I have to watch the video again because it was all new to me and hasn't all sunk in yet.
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Old 09-14-2020, 01:41 AM   #8
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This is gonna be interesting to see unfold, especially considering that from what I can tell, Norbes wasn't just fired from URL for the shit between him and the mother of Twork's kid.
Why do you suspect he was fired?
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Old 09-14-2020, 02:45 AM   #9
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I would take 5 bucks on him getting 5 mil and 5 percent settled for fun
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Old 09-15-2020, 07:07 AM   #10
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As much as I don't like Norbes, I think this is true. I didn't realize URL was pulling in those kinds of numbers though. 40 million is insane money unless URL makes money in other ways.
The chances they have 40mil aren't THAT farfetched but hte idea that they're making 40mil PA? Absolutely, unadulterated nonsense.

Each event must be grossing something like 200k (that tickets, PPVs, Youtube revenue) judging by tickets, views, available PPV numbers etc... vs price of these.

MAYBE 200k. Pay your battlers. Pay your hireage. Catering. Decor. Security. Techincal staff. public liability insurance etc.. etc.. etc...etc... etc....

They might get 30k liquid per event. In a year you're looking at maybe, at a big push, 400k profit.

I haven't mentioned sponsorships or merch. But if there's some evidence that those two are netting around 39.5mil... I'd be keen to see that break down.
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Old 09-15-2020, 02:43 PM   #11
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The chances they have 40mil aren't THAT farfetched but hte idea that they're making 40mil PA? Absolutely, unadulterated nonsense.

Each event must be grossing something like 200k (that tickets, PPVs, Youtube revenue) judging by tickets, views, available PPV numbers etc... vs price of these.

MAYBE 200k. Pay your battlers. Pay your hireage. Catering. Decor. Security. Techincal staff. public liability insurance etc.. etc.. etc...etc... etc....

They might get 30k liquid per event. In a year you're looking at maybe, at a big push, 400k profit.

I haven't mentioned sponsorships or merch. But if there's some evidence that those two are netting around 39.5mil... I'd be keen to see that break down.
Norbes is going off of estimates based on how Caffeine valued the company. The idea is that the business model moving forward includes different monitization strategies and the value of the back catalog is a factor as well. 40 million is a lot, but I suspect they will negotiate a settlement so of course he is going high. My guess is that he will win between 1-5 million and he probably won't be able to discuss specifics after. Is that called a NDA?

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Old 09-15-2020, 04:18 PM   #12
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Norbes is going off of estimates based on how Caffeine valued the company. The idea is that the business model moving forward includes different monitization strategies and the value of the back catalog is a factor as well. 40 million is a lot, but I suspect they will negotiate a settlement so of course he is going high. My guess is that he will win between 1-5 million and he probably won't be able to discuss specifics after. Is that called a NDA?
My GUESS is that they will settle but if norbes doesn’t have a proof of contract then that’s problematic.
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Old 09-15-2020, 07:01 PM   #13
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Why do you suspect he was fired?
Around the same time the stuff came out regarding Norbes and Twork, Born Legacy 9 fell through after multiple delays, including the city it was supposed to happen in being moved around several times. If I'm not mistaken, Norbes was usually in charge of putting together Born Legacy events.

Also, maybe a couple days before Norbes was fired, he made some kind of social media post saying that he was looking for battlers to recruit to help get them on URL. Keep in mind, this was after URL announced that they were dismantling the PG's in favor of The Crucible as the new way of recruiting talent, announced specific talent scouts for The Crucible, none of which who were Norbes.
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Old 09-15-2020, 11:50 PM   #14
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Around the same time the stuff came out regarding Norbes and Twork, Born Legacy 9 fell through after multiple delays, including the city it was supposed to happen in being moved around several times. If I'm not mistaken, Norbes was usually in charge of putting together Born Legacy events.

Also, maybe a couple days before Norbes was fired, he made some kind of social media post saying that he was looking for battlers to recruit to help get them on URL. Keep in mind, this was after URL announced that they were dismantling the PG's in favor of The Crucible as the new way of recruiting talent, announced specific talent scouts for The Crucible, none of which who were Norbes.
The Norbes case made Yahoo Finance

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ultim...180700697.html
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Old 09-16-2020, 12:25 AM   #15
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I think URL can spin this is way the reason Norbes for releases or fired was because his decision making wasn’t good for the company.....not only dealing with the Twork situation but rumors are that Norbes was having folks pay money for doing PG’s without URL knowledge
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Old 09-16-2020, 06:06 PM   #16
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My GUESS is that they will settle but if norbes doesn’t have a proof of contract then that’s problematic.
From Norbes' own filing:

Code:
(260) Plaintiff never received a contract, in writing, for the plethora of services
that he was providing to the Ultimate Rap League or a written employment
agreement from the Ultimate Rap League.
Without a contract or agreement, he may still be considered an employee and not an independent contractor if he was performing core business services. He's basically claiming he was responsible for all content and battlers that came through URL. This isn't much different than when Avo and Lush sold GTN's old footage to FilmOn without Illz' consent, except Illz didn't care enough to sue. Seems like it went down the same where they offered to buy his interest and cut him in, but then did the deal behind his back and cut him out. It's amazing how people never seem to do legitimate contracts or business agreements in battle rap and then want their cut when shit goes sour.

URL didn't even file as an LLC in New York until June 2017. For all anyone knows, they cut him out back then and shit is owned by "Harry." He owns the PPV platform. According to the complaint, he estimates they made $25 million over the last decade, but apparently they have no actual accounting. Norbes is claiming he owns 25% and requested in earlier demands prior to lawsuit to view their books from 2009 to present to show profit splits, but URL's lawyer didn't allow and claimed he wasn't a partner. They may end up having bigger problems than Norbes.
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Old 09-16-2020, 07:10 PM   #17
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From Norbes' own filing:

Code:
(260) Plaintiff never received a contract, in writing, for the plethora of services
that he was providing to the Ultimate Rap League or a written employment
agreement from the Ultimate Rap League.
Without a contract or agreement, he may still be considered an employee and not an independent contractor if he was performing core business services. He's basically claiming he was responsible for all content and battlers that came through URL. This isn't much different than when Avo and Lush sold GTN's old footage to FilmOn without Illz' consent, except Illz didn't care enough to sue. Seems like it went down the same where they offered to buy his interest and cut him in, but then did the deal behind his back and cut him out. It's amazing how people never seem to do legitimate contracts or business agreements in battle rap and then want their cut when shit goes sour.

URL didn't even file as an LLC in New York until June 2017. For all anyone knows, they cut him out back then and shit is owned by "Harry." He owns the PPV platform. According to the complaint, he estimates they made $25 million over the last decade, but apparently they have no actual accounting. Norbes is claiming he owns 25% and requested in earlier demands prior to lawsuit to view their books from 2009 to present to show profit splits, but URL's lawyer didn't allow and claimed he wasn't a partner. They may end up having bigger problems than Norbes.
Yikes they became an LLC in 2017 and don’t have accounting for their finances? Wow. I figured they’d have their shit together by now.
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Old 09-16-2020, 08:07 PM   #18
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I could break this down in depth, but it's not worth the hour.

The facts, and result of the matter will be:

Norbes has a legit claim. URL has a lot to lose. Whether they settle, or ride this out to the full extent...

URL (reps) will come out happy not losing what they could have potentially lost. Norbes comes out happy ultimately gaining more than he realistically fathomed. (30M + 10M + 250K + 10% is a pipe dream.)

Most importantly, Caffeine is going to come out with majority (if not outright, but unlikely) ownership and creative control of the actual company. The faces will stay around for a bit, but I guarantee you this is the end of an era.

The entire collective URL governance is going to get worked over on this one. Guaranteed.
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Old 09-16-2020, 08:31 PM   #19
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So does anyone have an idea of who owns what in regards to the URL? I'd figure Smack n Beasley obviously have alot of it but I have no real knowledge on the subject. This seems like a shit show waiting to happen.
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Old 09-16-2020, 09:14 PM   #20
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So does anyone have an idea of who owns what in regards to the URL?
Someone could maybe find out from NY's Department of State by getting a copy of the docs to see if partners or officers are listed on registration. All that shows online is that it was registered on June 7, 2017 as a fictitious name by:

UNITED STATES CORPORATION AGENTS, INC.
7014 13TH AVENUE, SUITE 202
BROOKLYN, NEW YORK, 11228


According to Norbes' complaint, it was a "gentleman's agreement" for 25% share between him, Smack, Beasley, and Cheeko.

If Caffeine wants the back catalog of battles for content, they may need to also pay off or get permission from every single battler and people featured in the battles depending on the releases/contracts they originally had with URL and what was in them. Then you can also get into copyright disputes for who filmed and edited the battles if they didn't have proper contracts/copyright assignments with them either.
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Old 09-16-2020, 09:28 PM   #21
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I dunno if it was done lately but I went on URLs Wikipedia oage n Norbes name has been changed to Snitchstar Norbes lool. It does say about 4 people splitting the ownership but obviously anyone can change a Wikipedia. What does this Cheeko guy do? Been a massive battle nerd for years but don't really know much of the behind the scenes kinda ish.
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Old 09-17-2020, 02:27 AM   #22
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Most importantly, Caffeine is going to come out with majority (if not outright, but unlikely) ownership and creative control of the actual company. The faces will stay around for a bit, but I guarantee you this is the end of an era.
Can anyone provide a source for this? I've read this argument countless times on this site, but not sure why people think this.

Caffeine is a host. It has no more ownership over anything than say Youtube owned GT Now. It has a partnership in the sense that it provides the services and promotes URL and in return URL uses its people and production. That's it. Once they finish their contract, URL could easily walk. There are 4 shareholders, but not sure why people think that the majority 'shareholder' in URL isn't Smack.
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Old 09-17-2020, 03:41 AM   #23
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A source? This is a standard business tactic in manipulation in a situation like this. It’s a simple conclusion to come to, but all these people are right for the wrong reasons.

You’re right, Caffeine is a host. An independent contractor with a vested interest, and now with all the leverage in the world.

URL is a LLC, not a corporation. Roles i.e. “owner”, “founder”, “executive”, ect. are simply a formality. Any person(s) involved here are not responsible for business debts, or liabilities. “Ultimate Rap League” is. Authorization and authority are immaterial here, at the end of the day they are simply all members with different profit distribution, and management roles.

Simply put, this lawsuit makes them far beyond vulnerable with the way they are structured. A little due diligence on Norbes’ legal representation alone should shed a light on the fuck shit about to take place. Anyone who doesn’t believe URL won’t consult and exercise the resource they have in Caffeine in this very serious threat to their livelihood is a bit oblivious IMO.

Caffeine could already be preemptively secret handshaking with Norbes in this, or they may eventually be offering guidance to URL command. Don’t know - don’t care. But the scenario of them being involved, and being accredited to “saving” something is all but certain from my vantage point.

This lawsuit makes URL an extremely easy target, and a gimme acquisition for a company with their vision and publicized ambition.

Just my $0.02 of course. I don’t give a fuck either way, but the writing is already on the wall.
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Old 09-17-2020, 05:58 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by versesmc View Post
From Norbes' own filing:

Code:
(260) Plaintiff never received a contract, in writing, for the plethora of services
that he was providing to the Ultimate Rap League or a written employment
agreement from the Ultimate Rap League.
Without a contract or agreement, he may still be considered an employee and not an independent contractor if he was performing core business services. He's basically claiming he was responsible for all content and battlers that came through URL. This isn't much different than when Avo and Lush sold GTN's old footage to FilmOn without Illz' consent, except Illz didn't care enough to sue. Seems like it went down the same where they offered to buy his interest and cut him in, but then did the deal behind his back and cut him out. It's amazing how people never seem to do legitimate contracts or business agreements in battle rap and then want their cut when shit goes sour.

URL didn't even file as an LLC in New York until June 2017. For all anyone knows, they cut him out back then and shit is owned by "Harry." He owns the PPV platform. According to the complaint, he estimates they made $25 million over the last decade, but apparently they have no actual accounting. Norbes is claiming he owns 25% and requested in earlier demands prior to lawsuit to view their books from 2009 to present to show profit splits, but URL's lawyer didn't allow and claimed he wasn't a partner. They may end up having bigger problems than Norbes.
My understanding is that if he can prove he did substantial, and necessary work which resulted in the company having financial gain, he is entitled (on the base level. Just that it wont be dismissed on that basis).

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/9...38456118_zpid/ Here's Smack's pad btw. Not what i expected at all

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Old 09-17-2020, 07:17 AM   #25
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Old 09-17-2020, 08:53 AM   #26
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Yikes they became an LLC in 2017 and don’t have accounting for their finances? Wow. I figured they’d have their shit together by now.
Really? If they hired just one white guy, they probably would
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Old 09-17-2020, 12:00 PM   #27
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A source? This is a standard business tactic in manipulation in a situation like this. It’s a simple conclusion to come to, but all these people are right for the wrong reasons.

You’re right, Caffeine is a host. An independent contractor with a vested interest, and now with all the leverage in the world.

URL is a LLC, not a corporation. Roles i.e. “owner”, “founder”, “executive”, ect. are simply a formality. Any person(s) involved here are not responsible for business debts, or liabilities. “Ultimate Rap League” is. Authorization and authority are immaterial here, at the end of the day they are simply all members with different profit distribution, and management roles.

Simply put, this lawsuit makes them far beyond vulnerable with the way they are structured. A little due diligence on Norbes’ legal representation alone should shed a light on the fuck shit about to take place. Anyone who doesn’t believe URL won’t consult and exercise the resource they have in Caffeine in this very serious threat to their livelihood is a bit oblivious IMO.

Caffeine could already be preemptively secret handshaking with Norbes in this, or they may eventually be offering guidance to URL command. Don’t know - don’t care. But the scenario of them being involved, and being accredited to “saving” something is all but certain from my vantage point.

This lawsuit makes URL an extremely easy target, and a gimme acquisition for a company with their vision and publicized ambition.

Just my $0.02 of course. I don’t give a fuck either way, but the writing is already on the wall.
Very informative. Good to see u posting on the board again.
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Old 09-17-2020, 02:18 PM   #28
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Can anyone provide a source for this? I've read this argument countless times on this site, but not sure why people think this.

Caffeine is a host. It has no more ownership over anything than say Youtube owned GT Now. It has a partnership in the sense that it provides the services and promotes URL and in return URL uses its people and production. That's it. Once they finish their contract, URL could easily walk. There are 4 shareholders, but not sure why people think that the majority 'shareholder' in URL isn't Smack.
Lets take a close look at the YouTube & GT/ Caffeine & URL analogy. GT put their content on youtube and URL puts their content on Caffeine. Isn't the difference that Caffeine pays for some or all of URL production costs, and youtube didn't pay for GT's production costs?

A source for that could be Avocado's where he states that Caffeine wouldn't allow him to film even though URL wanted him to.

I'm not aware of public documents that say URL is owned by Caffeine, but like what I think @versesmc was saying is that by giving URL money that gave them at least some control of the company. And since a well funded company like Caffeine has the ability and incentive to fight Norbes' legal team, URL might be forced to take more help from them and in the process give up (more) equity.

I imagine Norbes' legal team is working on contingency

Last edited by Profess; 09-17-2020 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 09-17-2020, 04:34 PM   #29
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Old 09-18-2020, 12:25 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Profess View Post
Lets take a close look at the YouTube & GT/ Caffeine & URL analogy. GT put their content on youtube and URL puts their content on Caffeine. Isn't the difference that Caffeine pays for some or all of URL production costs, and youtube didn't pay for GT's production costs?

A source for that could be Avocado's where he states that Caffeine wouldn't allow him to film even though URL wanted him to.

I'm not aware of public documents that say URL is owned by Caffeine, but like what I think @versesmc was saying is that by giving URL money that gave them at least some control of the company. And since a well funded company like Caffeine has the ability and incentive to fight Norbes' legal team, URL might be forced to take more help from them and in the process give up (more) equity.

I imagine Norbes' legal team is working on contingency
In order to take over a company on any level, you need shares in that company/equity. While we don't know what is going on behind the scenes, I have seen no evidence that Smack had given any equity to Caffeine. Norbes potentially has some and if he was able to join with another person behind the scenes and leverage that into a power move, then Smack has trouble. However, ironically Caffeine may save him as I doubt they have any interest in working with someone like Norbes.

Avocado isn't really the same thing. Caffeine signed a contract agreeing that Smack would use Caffeine's in house team for video production. It's not that unusual a contract for a big player to want as it allows them to ensure a certain standard. It shows influence, but doesn't show any kind of ownership.

Finally, I doubt that Caffeine have any intention of getting into the legal dispute even if one of their partners is involved. If things go south they will almost certainly abandon URL. While to us, URL has value to a company like Fox URL is just a golden goose and as soon as the eggs dry up they'll be out
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Old 09-18-2020, 12:53 AM   #31
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In order to take over a company on any level, you need shares in that company/equity. While we don't know what is going on behind the scenes, I have seen no evidence that Smack had given any equity to Caffeine. Norbes potentially has some and if he was able to join with another person behind the scenes and leverage that into a power move, then Smack has trouble. However, ironically Caffeine may save him as I doubt they have any interest in working with someone like Norbes.

Avocado isn't really the same thing. Caffeine signed a contract agreeing that Smack would use Caffeine's in house team for video production. It's not that unusual a contract for a big player to want as it allows them to ensure a certain standard. It shows influence, but doesn't show any kind of ownership.

Finally, I doubt that Caffeine have any intention of getting into the legal dispute even if one of their partners is involved. If things go south they will almost certainly abandon URL. While to us, URL has value to a company like Fox URL is just a golden goose and as soon as the eggs dry up they'll be out
It is possible that Caffeine is just throwing money at celebs so they will post content on their site instead of on youtube as a way to build a buzz. That is the theory DME was going with yesterday. So you might be right that Caffiene holds no ownership in the URL. As far as paying URL's legal fees, just because Caffiene has already invested money into producing URL events and more money and time building relationships with their staff and contractors doesn't necessarlity mean they will continue spending money fighting the Street Star's legal team.
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